Sympathy for the Devil?

[Annunfuiniel]

Originally Posted by alatar

And so why should we have any sympathy for its Maker, as many many mere mortals are in the proximity of the Ring and yet resist its temptations? Sauron *chose* to do this thing.

I think Sauron chose many things, beginning with the forging of the rings and then going on with his war even after the Ring was lost and especially after it was found again. But after the One Ring was made I doubt he had the ability to resist its temptations. For it was an essential (even indispensable) part of his very being:

"And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;" (Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)

And from the Letters: "if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will."

He could of course, as witnessed, "live" without his ring but I'd imagine it as something equal to having your right hand amputated. Or rather – both hands and legs. And he undoubtedly experienced the phantom limbs –phenomenon, in its extreme: the most vital part of his being (not his physical body; this has been discussed earlier) was no longer there, yet he could definitely feel it and one can only imagine how it must have "itched" and "burned"... Maybe it wasn't pain as we mortals experience it but then again, maybe it was something "more", beyond our comprehension and endurance. Can't explain this very well...

Yet, to set the record straight, I have no empathy for Sauron. He caused such irreparable damage and suffering that it would be near impossible to forgive him even had he chosen to repent. I'm loth to deliver death penalties (as I'm quite unable to give life to those that die but deserve to live...); had things gone otherwise and Sauron had lived despite the destruction of the ring I'd rather that he had been imprisoned and would suffer until the Last Battle. Or better yet: he should have been sentenced to community service to try and amend some of his evildoings (there would have been a loooot to do in the Brown Lands, for example).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I can't feel any real sympathy for Sauron. He didn't stumble into his troubles in life; he made choices that led him to them. If he felt tormented by the loss of the Ring... well, he should've thought of that possibility when he made the thing in the first place. Narrowness of vision does appear to be one of Sauron's problems (made worse by hubris). As he couldn't envision anyone else wanting to destroy his Ring, he probably couldn't imagine anyone being strong enough or lucky enough to take it from him. One would think that feeling torment over its loss would've led him to learn to consider all the possibilities of what might occur should it fall into the hands of his enemies, but it clearly didn't.

I agree with Morth, he's a dry piece of toast, and worse. He had the example of Morgoth from which to learn, and to some extent he did, but he didn't learn that he should never underestimate his enemies, or the vagaries of "luck," as it is called. He made his Ring to be the Ultimate Weapon that would enable him to rule the world, he got walloped twice while in possession of it, and still didn't stop to consider all possibilities when facing another war without it. If I feel any pity for him, I suppose it's because for a fearsome Dark Lord, the guy just isn't all that bright.

[Mithadan]

I truly regret using the word "sympathy" in any of my posts in this thread, as it has detracted from the real question. Of course, Sauron is not a sympathetic character. In some ways, he is even less sympathetic than Morgoth. Morgoth is Loki; the trickster, the eternal rebel and contrarian. If someone says to him "white", he responds with "black" because of who he is. The Valar raise a mountain and he flattens it. The Valar fill a sea and he empties it. He is truly evil, yet at times it is evil in a faintly charming way, in the same way that we sometimes appreciate a scoundrel. Moreover, we do not see him clearly. He is somewhat nebulous, like a great cloud on the horizon. While we don't see Sauron clearly either, at least during the Third Age, we do learn a lot more about his evil acts (three Ages worth) than those of Morgoth.

The real (intended) topic of this thread is simply whether or not Sauron suffered the same type of torment that the other Ringbearers did when deprived of their "Precious". Yes, the essence of the Ring and its power derives from Sauron; he stripped himself of much of his native strength and infused the Ring with it. But this does not mean that he does not suffer from the loss of the Ring. Indeed, the taking of the Ring from him by Isildur "kills" him.

When he manages to reassemble himself, Sauron does not return to Mordor. Instead, he sets up shop in Dol Guldur, near the Gladden Fields where Isildur disappeared. Yes, Dol Guldur is a great place to hide, yet it seems he had no problem doing so in the East. Nor does Dol Guldur have any over-riding strategic value. It is not near his primary enemy, Gondor. It is near Anduin, but does not give him control of the river. It is near Moria, which has already been abandoned by the Dwarves. It is near Lorien, but he clearly does not have the strength to attack Galadriel at that time. Even during the War of the Ring, any attacks staged from Dol Guldur were of secondary import at best. No, he occupied Dol Guldur primarily as a location from which to search for the Ring and, perhaps secondarily to create an evil presence to scare anyone else away from the neighborhood. This resembles the single-minded pursuit of the Ring that we see in Gollum.

Yet, when he does discover the location of the Ring, his efforts to take it or intercept it are almost lackadaisical. This would seem contrary to the concept of the Ring being a tormenting, driving force to Sauron. He seems willing to risk it being hidden or falling into the hands of one of his enemies, under the apparent assumption that he will inevitably prevail militarily.

Much is made of Bolbo's choice to surrender the Ring to Frodo. It was difficult, but he managed to do it. Someone else voluntarily laid down the Ring; Sauron. It seems that when the Numenoreans assailed him and he surrendered, he left the Ring behind, likely in the deepest vault of Barad-Dur, and took it up again after he had crafted himself a body following the drowning of Numenor. So, maybe the Ring did not exert such a hold upon him as it did upon its Mortal bearers.

[Formendacil]

Well, regarding Sauron being able to put aside his Ring (Númenor), that strikes me as, in a sense, a case of self-mastery. The Ring, after all, IS Sauron. It's his essence that is diffused through it, and which gives it its power. It occurs to me that there might a sort of analogy that could be made with addictions: for anyone else, there are physical side-effects of withdrawal, since a foreign substance (object rather) that the "user" has become accustomed to having has been withdrawn (or willingly given up, as in Bilbo's case), as well as any psychological trauma, but in the case of Sauron it seems much more like giving up a habit, because insofar as the Ring is an extension of himself, he's really just stopped using that part of himself--the distinction here being that Sauron has stopped using something natural to him (natural in a sense anyway), whereas any other Ringbearer is having to stop using something that is not natural to him--a foreign substance, so to speak.

I do stress, however, lest the topic go that way, that I do not see the Ring as an allegory for drugs so much as drugs being a useful allegory for the Ring.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Someone else voluntarily laid down the Ring; Sauron. It seems that when the Numenoreans assailed him and he surrendered, he left the Ring behind, likely in the deepest vault of Barad-Dur, and took it up again after he had crafted himself a body following the drowning of Numenor. So, maybe the Ring did not exert such a hold upon him as it did upon its Mortal bearers.

Sorry, but no. Sauron did take the Ring with him to Numenor:

He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.” -L #211

Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring” back to Middle-earth after the drowning of Númenor. -L #211

I think he was able to make the One invisible, much in the same way as Galadriel, Gandalf etc concealed the Three. What helped was that Ar-Pharazon had no idea that the One existed in the first place: the Elves always kept the matter secret from their human allies:

I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them.-L #211 (280)

Apart from that, even if Sauron was mentally strong enough to part from the Ring willingly even for a short time, he couldn't do so, IMO. He needed to wield the Ring to control the Nine and the Seven and to prevent the bearers of the Three to wear and use their Rings as they did in the TA.

If he left the Ring in Barad Dur how could he be sure that his Nazgul won't steal it? To be 100% sure of their loyalty, he would have had to take the Nine Rings from them and to take these in Numenor with him instead of the One - a silly solution.

[Morsul the Dark]

Sauron assumed the ring had been destroyed.... Or so one would assume considering his lack of action over 3000 years. If he had been so agonized over its loss but knew it still existed he would have started looking for it much sooner, in my opinion.

I mean the wraiths supposedly could sense it when it was worn so they should have been sniffing around the misty mountains for those last 500 years when Gollum wore it constantly.

So no I don't feel sorry for Sauron because to me his actions seem to suggest he did not lament the ring.

Of course when he found out the ring still existed everything went to hell. but I think it was simply a loss of patience. He would have won if the ring remained unfound it just would have taken more time. He wanted two things his full power back and to protect the ring.

He (in my opinion) knew the ring was his only weakness, that is why He hunted it so desperately. He simply didn't think a hobbit would know how to destroy it. So that is why he moved on Minas Tirith and Saruman went up against Rohan. the two last bastions of power in Middle Earth.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I disagree, Morsul. Had the Ring been 'put to the sword', so to speak, Sauron would certainly have known, as he would have been reduced to some sort of ghost creature. The Ring was a great part of Sauron, but no great part of him was destroyed, so he can't have had any reason to think the Ring destroyed. He must have assumed it was lost, probably in the Great Sea. His fervent action came after he learned the Ring had been found, and wasn't lost anymore.

But to answer the original question, no I don't think Sauron suffered. The other Ringbearers suffered because the power of Sauron had corrupted them; Sauron himself could hardly be corrupted by his own power. Sauron's suffering came from the thought that a mighty Lord of Middle-earth could use his own power against him.

[Mithadan]

Regarding the question of whether Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor, there is a nice thread from some years back on this issue (in which I made many of the same arguments raised here by Gordis ). This thread can be found at the following link: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...n+numenor+ring.

To put that thread in context, that discussion arose at around the time when various members were debating the relative "reliability" of sources outside the primary works (such as Letters, HoME, Unfinished Tales and even whether the Silmarillion should be considered a "primary work"). While the letter quoted by Gordis and the other letter quoted in the linked thread seem absolute, there is some text that suggests or implies that Sauron did not take the Ring with him to Numenor, and there exist valid arguments that this was the case if one chooses to discount the letters.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think that if Sauron suffered because of the loss of the Ring, it was not the same kind of torment that lesser bearers of it would have felt. Sitting there for three thousand years without it, his "torment" would have been, I think, bitterness and anger, mostly directed toward the Men and Elves who deprived him of his Ring and its power. I rather doubt he would have consciously blamed himself for not considering the possibility of its loss, but like most profoundly bitter and angry persons who are in denial of their own part in their current circumstances, it would have gnawed at him, even unacknowledged. And yet, that bitterness and anger often comes to dominate the lives of those who will not let go of it.

So did he feel some kind of torment over the loss of the Ring? Psychologically, yes, I imagine he did. Was it the kind of suffering for which I could pity him? Not really, no more than I could feel sympathy for an abuser who is upset because his victim finds a way to stop the abuse. Of course, there's a huge amount of personal experience behind this train of thought, so take it as you will.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I disagree, Morsul. Had the Ring been 'put to the sword', so to speak, Sauron would certainly have known, as he would have been reduced to some sort of ghost creature. The Ring was a great part of Sauron, but no great part of him was destroyed, so he can't have had any reason to think the Ring destroyed. He must have assumed it was lost, probably in the Great Sea. His fervent action came after he learned the Ring had been found, and wasn't lost anymore.

But to answer the original question, no I don't think Sauron suffered. The other Ringbearers suffered because the power of Sauron had corrupted them; Sauron himself could hardly be corrupted by his own power. Sauron's suffering came from the thought that a mighty Lord of Middle-earth could use his own power against him.

yes but did he know that he would perish if the ring did? perhaps he thought that power was destroyed but he remained

[Pitchwife]

Sorry for going far off-topic, but I can't help it.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Morgoth is Loki; the trickster, the eternal rebel and contrarian.

No, no, and no again! While the trickster certainly is the eternal rebel and contrarian, con-man and deceiver, he is also a beneficial culture-hero (think of Prometheus in Greek mythology); not to forget his humorous side, always making fun of himself and others. Loki contains all these aspects - he even was involved in creating the first human couple (if you accept that Loður in the Voluspa is another name for him), not to mention all the times he helped the Gods out of serious trouble (like getting Thor's hammer back, getting the better of the Giant architect who built Valhall, etc.; true, in some cases he got the Gods into the trouble first, but there's always both sides in him).
None of this in Morgoth, who is simply destructive and power-crazy. The early Melko of BoLT may have had some Loki-like traits: offering to build the pillars for the Lamps of the Valar, only to cheat them by making the pillars of ice that melted once the Lamps were ignited - now, that's something Loki might have done. But as far as I can see, all this was completely lost later; and as for the creative side of the trickster, that's entirely absent in Morgoth.

Sorry again for this off-topic post, but I just couldn't stand by quietly and hear my favourite Norse God wronged. Please proceed.