The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Gondowe: So if I understand correctly, you propose that Orodreth's wife and Gil-Galad first come with Orodreth to Nargothrond and then at some later (but presumably not much later) point are sent away to Eglarest. Is that right?

I don't see any compelling evidence in either direction (placing Gil-Galad's flight before or after the fall of Minas Tirith). But a case can perhaps be made that, despite the alteration of Gil-Galad's parentage, we should still use the date of 456 given in GA. In GA Minas Tirith is taken in 455, so this would seem to favour Gondowe's version. Does that make any sense? I'm not entirely sure about it myself.

Hello guys, sorry, I was busy these days.

Yes Aiwendil, that's right, and I think the 456 date could be a good date.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I have looked deeper into the question how to introduce Gil-galads departure into our texts. What is to be analysed is mostly in note on the Later Quenta Silmarillion in HoME 11. I give this note in full as fare as it is concerned with Gil-galad:

The other alteration made to QS only, and obviously made much earlier than that just given, was an addition to the end of $137, after the words 'he [Felagund] gave to Barahir his ring'.

But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.

Felagund's wife Meril has not been named before, nor any child of his; and this is the first appearance of Gil-galad from The Lord of the Rings. Another note on the subject is found in the QS manuscript near the opening of the 'short' (i.e. condensed) version of the tale of Beren and Luthien (see V.293), pencilled rapidly at the foot of a page but clearly referring to the statement in the text that Felagund gave the crown of Nargothrond to Orodreth before his departure with Beren (The Silmarillion p. 170):

But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife.

This was struck out; and somewhat further on in the tale of Beren and Luthien in the same version is a third hasty note, without direction for insertion but evidently referring to the passage in which Orodreth expelled Celegorn and Curufin from Nargothrond (The Silmarillion p. 176):

But the Lady _ _ _ wife of Inglor forsook the folk of Nargothrond and went with her son Gilgalad to the Havens of the Falas.

A blank space is here left for the name of Felagund's wife. In each of these mentions, taking them in sequence, her departure is displaced to a later point; but of course they need not have been written in that sequence (although the third presumably replaced the second, which was struck out). On the other hand it seems very unlikely that the three additions do not belong together, though there seems to be no way of discovering with certainty when they were written. - It may also be noticed that a later correction to the old AB 2 manuscript changed the sentence in the concluding annal (V.144) 'But Elrond the Half-elfin remained, and ruled in the West of the world' to 'But Elrond the Half-elven remained with Gilgalad son of Inglor Felagund who ruled in the West of the world.'
In this connection must be mentioned the passage in the Grey Annals $$108-9 (p. 44), where it is expressly stated that 'King Inglor Felagund had no wife', and that when Galadriel came to Nargothrond for the feast celebrating its completion in the year 102 she asked him why:

... but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of all my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarie of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile.

Amarie appears again in GA, in both versions of the retelling of the story of Beren and Luthien ($$180, 199), where it is said that Felagund dwells in Valinor with Amarie.
Later evidence makes it certain that the notes on the QS manuscript represent a rejected idea for the incorporation of Gil-galad into the traditions of the Elder Days; and the passage just cited from the Grey Annals is to be taken as showing that it had been abandoned. That Gil-galad was the son of Fingon (The Silmarillion p. 154) derives from the late note pencilled on the manuscript of GA ($157), stating that when Fingon became King of the Noldor on the death of Fingolfin 'his young son (?Findor) [sic] Gilgalad he sent to the Havens.' But this, adopted after much hesitation, was not in fact by any means the last of my father's speculations on this question.

What I have taken up into the text was the first note and changed it to Orodreth.
In the third note the reason for the wife of Fealgund is very specifically his death in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Thus it is not useable since we have to switch to Orodreth wife.
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?
May be some one with a better take at english gramatic can tell me if the note must reffer to Felagunds son and wife or if it can not as well reffer to Orodreth family.

If it can then I think we should use that second note an incooperate it into our Beren and Luthien poem, like this:

Hearing these words there swiftly stood {1910}
beside him ten tried warriors good, [2145]
men of his house who had ever fought
wherever his banners had been brought.
BL-EX-09 {One stooped and}[Edrahil then] lifted up {his}[the] crown,
and said: 'O king, to leave this town {1915}
is now our fate, but not to lose [2150]
thy rightful lordship. Thou shalt choose
one to be steward in thy stead.'
Then Felagund upon the head
of Orodreth set it: BL-SL-04 ‘{Brother}[Nephew] mine, {1920}
till I return this crown is thine.' [2155]
Then Celegorm no more would stay,
and Curufin smiled and turned away.
BL-EX-10 <GA But Felagund spoke ere he bade farewell:
'{But this}This I {will }say to{ you, Celegorn}[Celegorm] the fell,
by the sight that is given me in this hour, [2160]
{that}by neither {thou}thine nor any power
{son of Fëanor}shall thy kin {regain} the Silmarils {ever unto world's end.}gain
before the End; all in vain
you swore. And this that we now seek
shall {come indeed}be delivered from the triple peak, [2165]
but never to your hands shall fall.
Nay, your oath shall devour {you}all
the sons of Fëanor, and{ deliver} to other {keeping} care
Lúthien’s great{the} bride-price {of Lúthien}bear.'>
BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}[u]And to Orordreth further Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
all strong place are now doomed, I fear,
to fall at last before the might of Bauglir.
Thus I command: To Eglarest and her own kin
you send away the wife of thine.
And with her she should take her elvenchild,
called for the brightness of his eye, Gil-galad, Stralight.’
*

My line are not good, really, but they might spark some ideas.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Findegil

...
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?
May be some one with a better take at english gramatic can tell me if the note must reffer to Felagunds son and wife or if it can not as well reffer to Orodreth family.

The note is sufficiently vague to refer to either. "His" has no clear antecedent; obviously the last "he" referred to was Felagund, but the proper noun "Orodreth" intervenes between the first pronoun and the second. In fact, in the most technical construction, according to the rules of English grammar, the word "his" must refer to Orodreth; as the last noun mentioned is strictly supposed to be the antecedent of all later pronouns of the same form, until the intervention of another noun.

If it can then I think we should use that second note an incooperate it into our Beren and Luthien poem, like this:

My line are not good, really, but they might spark some ideas.

Respectfully
Findegil

Perhaps:

BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}To Orodreth then Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
I fear at last shall places strong
soon fall before the Orkish throng.
To Eglarest, her home, I say,
thine own dear wife now send away.
And with her take thy young princeling,
Ereinion, heir of the king.
Whose name we call, for eyes so bright,
Gil-galad, the silver Starlight.’

And I also noticed that some of your verses don't have eight syllables after the style of Ann-thennath. Did you not follow that form?

[Findegil]

Really good.

It remains the question which note we take as basis.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

It looks very good the addition to the Narn, and in the sense of time passed, (not so close to the fall of Minas Tirith) perhaps it's a better place.

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by gondowe

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

This is an interesting point. Linguistically, of course,we must make distinction between the two names "Gilgalad" and "Gil-galad." The name Gilgalad (incidentally the form used in the note) is a compound of gil "star" and calad "light," (with the c lenited to a g) and does in fact mean "starlight."

The name Gil-galad, however, is not a compound, but rather a juxtaposition of gil with a completely separate word galad meaning "shining radiance; reflection." Thus we translate this name (following regular Sindarin conventions) "Star-of-Radiance."

Since Gil-galad was the form finally chosen by Tolkien, we must accept "Star of Radiance" as the accurate translation. Perhaps we could simply omit the two lines about his epessë?

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

In the third note the reason for the wife of Fealgund is very specifically his death in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Thus it is not useable since we have to switch to Orodreth wife.
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?

Reading the second note in isolation, it does rather sound to me as if it refers to Orodreth's wife, not Felagund's.

However, we can't simply read it in isolation. Christopher Tolkien seems rather confident that the third note replaced the second - and this is supported by the fact that the second note was struck out. In the third note, Gil-Galad is clearly Felagund's son, not Orodreth's. I think this strongly suggests that the second note was intended to refer to Felagund's wife/son as well. It seems very unlikely to me that Gil-Galad's parentage would be switched from Felagund to Orodreth and then switched back, without other evidence for such a progression. More likely, he was Felagund's son in all three QS notes and the second note, probably written in haste, was unintentionally expressed ambiguously.

I'm also skeptical of taking the date of Gil-Galad's departure from these QS notes. Christopher Tolkien seems quite certain that these predate the note in GA that places Gil-Galad's (there Fingon's son) departure in 456. Now, one could perhaps speculate that with the final placement of Gil-Galad as Orodreth's son there is an implicit return to the date in the second QS note. But I think such a proposal is highly speculative. If, as I suggest, all three QS notes have Gil-Galad as Felagund's son, then all three would appear to depend on Felagund's movements. In the first proposal, his wife and son depart after his defeat in the Bragollach. In the second, they depart when he leaves on the quest of the Silmaril. In the third, they depart after hearing of his death. I don't see any reason that any of these dates should be particularly favoured if they are in fact Orodreth's wife and son.

So at this point, my vote is still to go with the 456 date and place their departure in this chapter.