The Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Findegil

...
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?
May be some one with a better take at english gramatic can tell me if the note must reffer to Felagunds son and wife or if it can not as well reffer to Orodreth family.

The note is sufficiently vague to refer to either. "His" has no clear antecedent; obviously the last "he" referred to was Felagund, but the proper noun "Orodreth" intervenes between the first pronoun and the second. In fact, in the most technical construction, according to the rules of English grammar, the word "his" must refer to Orodreth; as the last noun mentioned is strictly supposed to be the antecedent of all later pronouns of the same form, until the intervention of another noun.

If it can then I think we should use that second note an incooperate it into our Beren and Luthien poem, like this:

My line are not good, really, but they might spark some ideas.

Respectfully
Findegil

Perhaps:

BL-EX-10.1 <LQ, note to chapter 15 {But foreseeing evil he commanded Orodreth to send away his son Gilgalad, and wife. / But fearing now that all strong places were doomed to fall at last before the might of Morgoth, he sent away his wife Meril to her own folk in Eglorest, and with her went their son, yet an elvenchild, and Gilgalad Starlight he was called for the brightness of his eye.}To Orodreth then Finrod spoke:
‘In this dark time with little hope
I fear at last shall places strong
soon fall before the Orkish throng.
To Eglarest, her home, I say,
thine own dear wife now send away.
And with her take thy young princeling,
Ereinion, heir of the king.
Whose name we call, for eyes so bright,
Gil-galad, the silver Starlight.’

And I also noticed that some of your verses don't have eight syllables after the style of Ann-thennath. Did you not follow that form?

[Findegil]

Really good.

It remains the question which note we take as basis.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

It looks very good the addition to the Narn, and in the sense of time passed, (not so close to the fall of Minas Tirith) perhaps it's a better place.

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

Greetings

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by gondowe

I want to insist in the Gil-galad surname, perhaps I'm mistaken but, is not later the note about that was his mother who gave the name for the helm and mail, and that it means Star of Radiance, not Starlight? So perhaps it would be better to place his 'surnaming' by his mother in a later time ,when he is High King, in the later chapter?

This is an interesting point. Linguistically, of course,we must make distinction between the two names "Gilgalad" and "Gil-galad." The name Gilgalad (incidentally the form used in the note) is a compound of gil "star" and calad "light," (with the c lenited to a g) and does in fact mean "starlight."

The name Gil-galad, however, is not a compound, but rather a juxtaposition of gil with a completely separate word galad meaning "shining radiance; reflection." Thus we translate this name (following regular Sindarin conventions) "Star-of-Radiance."

Since Gil-galad was the form finally chosen by Tolkien, we must accept "Star of Radiance" as the accurate translation. Perhaps we could simply omit the two lines about his epessë?

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

In the third note the reason for the wife of Fealgund is very specifically his death in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Thus it is not useable since we have to switch to Orodreth wife.
But I wonder now if the second note, placed in the story of Beren and Luthien before Felagund leaves Nargothrond is not reffering to Gil-galad as Orodreth’s son? Christopher Tolkien thinks it reffers to Felagunds wife and son. But would not Felagund be much better equiped to order his own wife - obviously the queen of Nargothrond - then Orodreth, the steward?

Reading the second note in isolation, it does rather sound to me as if it refers to Orodreth's wife, not Felagund's.

However, we can't simply read it in isolation. Christopher Tolkien seems rather confident that the third note replaced the second - and this is supported by the fact that the second note was struck out. In the third note, Gil-Galad is clearly Felagund's son, not Orodreth's. I think this strongly suggests that the second note was intended to refer to Felagund's wife/son as well. It seems very unlikely to me that Gil-Galad's parentage would be switched from Felagund to Orodreth and then switched back, without other evidence for such a progression. More likely, he was Felagund's son in all three QS notes and the second note, probably written in haste, was unintentionally expressed ambiguously.

I'm also skeptical of taking the date of Gil-Galad's departure from these QS notes. Christopher Tolkien seems quite certain that these predate the note in GA that places Gil-Galad's (there Fingon's son) departure in 456. Now, one could perhaps speculate that with the final placement of Gil-Galad as Orodreth's son there is an implicit return to the date in the second QS note. But I think such a proposal is highly speculative. If, as I suggest, all three QS notes have Gil-Galad as Felagund's son, then all three would appear to depend on Felagund's movements. In the first proposal, his wife and son depart after his defeat in the Bragollach. In the second, they depart when he leaves on the quest of the Silmaril. In the third, they depart after hearing of his death. I don't see any reason that any of these dates should be particularly favoured if they are in fact Orodreth's wife and son.

So at this point, my vote is still to go with the 456 date and place their departure in this chapter.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I'm fine with either date.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Findegil

§138 ... Therefore it was after called by the {Gnomes}[Elves] {Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin], which is Mirkwood, and Delduwath, Deadly Nightshade; ...

Originally Posted by Findegil

§149 ..... and he sent Sauron against them; and all the forest of the northward slopes of that land was turned into a region of dread and dark enchantment, so that it was after called Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Nightshade.

I think is better to omit the first Taur-nu-Fuin, and join the paragrahs into the second with the last translation.

Greetings.