Sympathy for the Devil?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Interesting question about the 3 elven rings. Even after the one was destroyed, the 3 supposedly lost their power, but Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf all keep them. That doesn't necessarily mean an addiction to their rings, but the Elves weakness was their inability to change. They wanted to preserve the way things were, and stay unchanged...the Elven Rings (at least for Elrond and Galadriel) did this. When the One is destroyed, I wonder if with the loss of power in their Rings, the fading of Lothlorien and Rivendell, if the trip to the Undying Lands was part of the Elves inability to accept change? And in the ability of the Elven Rings to protect, preserve, and even slow time and decay, if that is what the Elves were addicted to?

Another possible reason why the three were taken by their owners to the grey havens may have been as a safeguard. Elrond says the three "will fail", when asked by Frodo post adventures. I tend to interpret this as mein that as of the moment he was talking the three hadn't failed yet i.e. the rings power would wane gradually like a dying battery. By the time of the sailing the Three were likey dimished in power, but diminished isn't the same thing as "dead". Even with lessened and failing power the Three may have just been too dangerous to be left on ME, and run the risk of falling into less ethical or wise hands than those which had held them when they were at full strength. Even in thier weakened state I would imagine an inexperianced hand could do a lot of damage with them; it was just safer that they go beyond the reach of anyone.

[alatar]

Pleased to meet you...hope you guess my name...

What I wonder is if Eru has any sympathy for either Melkor or Sauron. Tolkien was a Christian, and so surely read the parable of the prodigal son:

Originally Posted by Luke 15:11-32

Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

Now, surely this parable would necessitate Melkor or Sauron to make some attempt at repentance and reconciliation for Eru to act as the father in the parable, but did you ever wonder if, at the end of all things, after Dagor Dagorath, Eru opens his arms to those that fell away?

[Bêthberry]

I think more pertinent to this question than the parable of the prodigal son is the figure of Judas Iscariot.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think more pertinent to this question than the parable of the prodigal son is the figure of Judas Iscariot.

That would be more like the story (thanks for all the help in fulfilling my plan; hope that you enjoy eternity in the pit); I was thinking more about reconciliation than thirty pieces of silver and the potter's field.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Sauron was not a slave to his ring, so I don't feel the same sympathy towards him as I do for the other Ringbearers. You should feel more sympathy towards the Nazgul, who were once mighty lords but ended up being utterly subjected to Sauron's will.

I doubt that Sauron immediately knew that the Ring was not destroyed after Isildur took it. For one thing, Sauron was nothing more than a disembodied spirit at that time, and took a very long time to start regaining his powers. Also, Sauron would have assumed that Isildur would have eventually succumbed to the temptation to use the Ring and should have become a Dark Lord himself. Or else, if the Ring betrayed Isildur then surely someone else would have taken the Ring?

Instead, no new Dark Lord emerged. Clearly the Ring was either destroyed or lost, but for a long time it must not have been clear to Sauron exactly what had happened. The emergence of some mighty lord wielding the One was always Sauron's greatest fear, especially at a time when Sauron did not have the strength to oppose such a power and take the Ring back by force. Few could have controlled the Ring, but perhaps there were those with the strength to do so. Galadriel or Elrond, for example. Sauron would have especially feared someone of their stature as Ringbearers.

After a time, and it may have been many years, Sauron would have started to "rebuild" himself and must have realised that the Nazgul still existed and still were his servants. The fact that the Nine Rings still "worked" would have been the real clue that the One was out there somewhere, and it must be lost but still functioning, since no new Dark Lord had presented herself (or himself).

Incidentally, I don't think that the Nazgul could have ever taken the One. They were slaves to the One (and Sauron) and I doubt that they could have seized it, any more than you or I could grab a piece of lava from Mount Doom and hold it in our hands.

If the Nazgul were capable of seizing the One, then they could have done so on Weathertop. The reason why they instead stabbed Frodo with the Morgul-knife was to turn him into a wraith so that he (still bearing the Ring) could then be brought to Mordor where Sauron would have then taken the Ring from Frodo. Nothing would have given Sauron greater pleasure than to have taken the Ring from its latest bearer. He probably would have simply commanded Frodo to surrender it. Frodo would have been unable to resist Sauron's command even though the psychological/spiritual trauma of doing so would have reduced Frodo to a gibbering insect. The greatest punishment that could have been inflicted upon Frodo would have been to simply allow him to live on in Sauron's shadow, constantly tortured by the sight of the Precious on the Dark Lord's hand. After all, there is such a thing as malice and revenge...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

thanks for all the help in fulfilling my plan

You're welcome.

I was thinking more about reconciliation than thirty pieces of silver and the potter's field.

You don't know the Gnostics on Judas?

Did Melkor's actions make Eru's music grander and more beautiful? Did Melkor fulfil Eru's music? Or did Melkor betray his god?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You're welcome.

Your 'help' is always so appreciated.

You don't know the Gnostics on Judas?

Surely not as well as you. How so?

Did Melkor's actions make Eru's music grander and more beautiful?

Surely.

Did Melkor fulfil Eru's music?

Not sure what that means.

Or did Melkor betray his god?

Only Eru knows.

But in the end of all things, will Eru say of Melkor and his second, Sauron, "Well done, good and faithful servant!" Or will He say, "So long, and thanks for all the fish"?

[Morwen]

On the question of the One's existence after Sauron's defeat at the end of the second Age, I don't know that Sauron ever thought the Ring was actually destroyed. He must have been aware that in allowing much of his power to pass into the Ring that he was making himself vulnerable. Should the Ring ever be destroyed, he would be destroyed as well. He certainly seems aware of this when Frodo claims the Ring in Mt. Doom. I don't have my LotR with me but there is a passage that describes how at that point Sauron abandoned all thought of his war and his calculations and his mind became focused on his Ring and the potential peril that he was in. So I agree with the view that his continued existence in Middle Earth should have been proof enough that his ring was still around. Lost, perhaps, but still around.
The extreme difficulty in destroying the Ring should also have informed his thinking. One of the reasons Sauron may have been willing to risk putting a great deal of his power into an object is because he was fairly certain that there was only the tiniest chance that the object could in fact be destroyed. The Ring could only be unmade at one specific place - the fires where it was originally forged and then only if someone possessed the will power to toss it in there. I think Sauron would have considered the latter possibility too remote to be entertained.