Redefining Good & Evil

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Perhaps I'm a touch vindictive here--and insofar as I'm capable of pulling myself back from that, I apologise--REALLY!--but what, exactly, does this have to do with either Tolkien or Eddings? To an extent, you seem to be agreeing with Hakon, who said that "good and evil are perspective"--a statement that, unqualified, I do not incline to agree with--you could perhaps be arguing that Tolkien, in fact, DOES have an Eddingseseque side, if you leave Eru out of the picture as pious legend of the Valinorean Elves (thus meaning that the REAL battle in Middle-earth is only between Melkor's and Manwë's parties, who really are comparable in power)--but you don't actually seem to be coming back to either Tolkien or Eddings at all.

You're right in here. I have nothing to say of Eddings even if any dimming of a spark of life is a great loss in this universe crowded by nothingness.

May he be remembered well, even if I won't be one of those remembering him with real tears as I haven't read his books, looking at them by the covers as just that basic bulk-fantasy. So never a fan of his even if regretting his death - as anyones.

But I do not agree with Hakon that good and evil are "just" perspectives. Not at all. I think good is good and bad is bad nonetheless of your religion or your world-view.

Thinking one should be good because of one's own self interest (a place in heaven) - or being good to obey a higher call anyway because some authority wants it - is bad. One should be good for it's own sake. To be a human is to be good (and bye-bye the primordial sin). That's what I try to say on the subject of good and evil between Tolkien and Eddings... or on it anyway.

The world I believe is immoral or a-moral. The religions bring the good in with the God but I think we must be braver than that. There's no God to judge you. You should be good without a God; make it a hypothesis for a while and think how it would affect your thought! Then you're good if you choose right without orders or rewards. It's not easy to grow up from childhood's "please and be rewarded" attitude but we have hope. That's what we need to count on,

Originally Posted by FOrm

While I might question the veracity of the slant you're putting on the historical facts... I'm really not sure at all what your point would be. Whether or not Catholicism as such got where it was today--or, pertinently, in Tolkien's lifetime--by the hand of , as I would say, or by the cut-throat tactics of decadent emperors and backwards barbarians (ignoring, completely, the historical fact of civilisation being SAVED in the West--never mind the East for now--by said cut-throat religion) is hardly to the point. My point had nothing to do with why the Manichees are not more popular today, and everything to with the fact that Tolkien's philosophy, as it comes through in the Silmarillion and the LotR is NOT Manichean, but much more reminiscent of orthodox Catholicism. And no wonder, given which of the two Tolkien belonged to.

I never said Tolkien was not a catholic. Vice versa (and sorry if that interptetation was plausible). Surely Tolkien is a catholic par exellance here - that was my point indeed.

And it's a telling choice of words when you speak of "Divine Providence", which is how the catholics and the orthodox speak while treating history. Comfortable.

I'm not going into the Albigenses here... or other "non-desirables" who thought the theodikea needed a solving...

But to my eyes the main-story seemed to be a question of an independent evil vs, the good. A question so problematic for christianity because of the clausules of the early church fathers and the political climate they made their decisions in (which are ignored). And not being so holy anyway...

The LotR is not Manichean. Here we should agree and I think I never claimed it was. Not at all.

I agree with you that Tolkien has the catholic view about it with providence... (Gandalf's resurrection, the fate that guides the Ring to Frodo etc..) although I think there are bitter schisms between the protestants and the catholics (not to talk of the Orthodox) on the subject of mercy vs. deeds vs. intentions.

But that's another topic alltogether I think - and nothing that could be argued...