Contradictory Descriptions of the Black Gate. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hakon · 06-25-2009, 06:13 PM

My guess is there are three doors total, more like three gates. I think in the Two Towers it was referring to the outermost gate/door.

radagastly · 06-26-2009, 07:40 AM

Can't it have been a single large gate with three posterns? I always pictured a double-door type gate that meets in the center, with a postern (people-sized door) near each hinge, and a third near the center, cut into one or the other of the two halves.

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-26-2009, 10:09 AM

However, it might have been a compound arch- a very typical feature of large medieval buildings. In other words, three individual gate-arches within one overall arch: the smaller arches support the weight of the infill underneath the main arch, a "relieving arch," which sustains the weight of the wall above.

A two-opening example (windows, not doors):

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/25630...drewmutton.jpg

narfforc · 06-27-2009, 04:59 AM

Cirith Gorgor was the pass into Mordor that the Morannon was built across. The Two Towers of the Teeth were on either side and The Black Gate Admidmost. I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings, I will have to check every copy at somestage. However having checked the second edition (the oldest I have), and two others (Unwin Books 74 and the 50th edition Harper Collins), they state that there are TWO vast doors. I have both the Ballantine and Ace copies, and they state THREE vast doors. Robert Foster's Guide states THREE doors also, so something is plainly wrong.

P.S I have just read on and seen a bit of editing going on. The Second Edition and the Unwin book states that The Mouth of Sauron comes from the middle door "And thereupon the middle door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". This changes in the 50th Edition Harper Collins to "And thereupon the door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". The Ace and Balantine copies go with the first statement.

narfforc · 06-27-2009, 07:25 AM

I decided to get out Hammond and Scull's Readers Companion and here is what it says:-

The two vast iron doors of the Black Gate under its frowning arch were fast closed.-As first published this sentence read: 'The three vast doors of the Black Gate under their frowning arches were fast closed'. It was revised in the second printing (1967) of the Allen and Unwin second Edition, to accord with the description of a single gate in Book IV, Chapter 3.

the door of The Black Gate-Prior to the Houghton Mifflin edition of 1987 and HarperCollins edition of 1994, these words read 'the middle door of the Black Gate'

I hope this helps.

JeffF. · 06-28-2009, 08:00 AM

I see. the mystery of the door is that there is none, it's just a typo.

I have the hardback editions but never knew there were differences in the text.

thanks

narfforc · 06-30-2009, 07:07 AM

As a matter of interest JeffF, how old are the books you are quoting from, and have you read only those copies?.

Gwathagor · 07-01-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings

HOLY - !!!

narfforc · 07-02-2009, 04:37 AM

They are all different, honest...

narfforc · 07-03-2009, 03:32 PM

It would interesting to know how long it took for this editing to reach other countries and translations.

06-25-2009, 06:13 PM	#1
Hakon Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Twilight Zone Posts: 736	My guess is there are three doors total, more like three gates. I think in the Two Towers it was referring to the outermost gate/door. __________________ Medicine for the soul. ~Inscription over the door of the Library at Thebes

06-26-2009, 07:40 AM	#2
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	Can't it have been a single large gate with three posterns? I always pictured a double-door type gate that meets in the center, with a postern (people-sized door) near each hinge, and a third near the center, cut into one or the other of the two halves. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

06-26-2009, 10:09 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	However, it might have been a compound arch- a very typical feature of large medieval buildings. In other words, three individual gate-arches within one overall arch: the smaller arches support the weight of the infill underneath the main arch, a "relieving arch," which sustains the weight of the wall above. A two-opening example (windows, not doors): http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/25630...drewmutton.jpg __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 06-26-2009 at 10:18 AM.

06-27-2009, 04:59 AM	#4
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Cirith Gorgor was the pass into Mordor that the Morannon was built across. The Two Towers of the Teeth were on either side and The Black Gate Admidmost. I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings, I will have to check every copy at somestage. However having checked the second edition (the oldest I have), and two others (Unwin Books 74 and the 50th edition Harper Collins), they state that there are TWO vast doors. I have both the Ballantine and Ace copies, and they state THREE vast doors. Robert Foster's Guide states THREE doors also, so something is plainly wrong. P.S I have just read on and seen a bit of editing going on. The Second Edition and the Unwin book states that The Mouth of Sauron comes from the middle door "And thereupon the middle door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". This changes in the 50th Edition Harper Collins to "And thereupon the door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". The Ace and Balantine copies go with the first statement. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 06-27-2009 at 05:13 AM.

06-27-2009, 07:25 AM	#5
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I decided to get out Hammond and Scull's Readers Companion and here is what it says:- The two vast iron doors of the Black Gate under its frowning arch were fast closed.-As first published this sentence read: 'The three vast doors of the Black Gate under their frowning arches were fast closed'. It was revised in the second printing (1967) of the Allen and Unwin second Edition, to accord with the description of a single gate in Book IV, Chapter 3. the door of The Black Gate-Prior to the Houghton Mifflin edition of 1987 and HarperCollins edition of 1994, these words read 'the middle door of the Black Gate' I hope this helps. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

06-28-2009, 08:00 AM	#6
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	No mystery I see. the mystery of the door is that there is none, it's just a typo. I have the hardback editions but never knew there were differences in the text. thanks __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

06-30-2009, 07:07 AM	#7
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	As a matter of interest JeffF, how old are the books you are quoting from, and have you read only those copies?. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

07-02-2009, 04:37 AM	#9
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	They are all different, honest... __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

07-03-2009, 03:32 PM	#10
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	It would interesting to know how long it took for this editing to reach other countries and translations. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.