A Face-palm for Sauron

[Boromir88]

Mithadan, nice post, and what I was referring to about Sauron losing part of his power with each rebuilding was from Letter 200

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'

Gwath thanks. I think it's interesting to consider because when you read the chapter Mount Doom, I mean moments before Frodo goes into the Sammath Naur he is completely drained of strength, Sam is having to carry him. Then suddenly he gets this spurt of energy which allows him to fight Gollum, and get into the Sammath Naur...it's just curious trying to figure out why Frodo suddenly had this 'energy.'

Also, during this time Frodo says some strange statements, where the reader can't tell whether it is Frodo or the Ring talking, it's like they are now indistinguishable, and the Ring needed to get Frodo to the Sammath Naur, where it's power and influence was at the maximum.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Just one thought concerning Frodo's sudden energy spurt at the end:

In the chapter "Mount Doom" we read:

This was probably the only thing that could have roused the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will: an attack, an attempt to wrest his treasure from him by force.

Though Tolkien does not use the word, I think we clearly see the effect of adrenalin here, giving that extra bit of power in a desperate situation. I can vaguely remember a discussion on this once, but don't know where it's buried.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Lurking through the thread for a few days now as I admit this is something of a puzzle I'd never considered before (thanks Inziladun). And it's come to me that I've been misunderstanding Sauron all along. He does not have mastery over the Ring but has been mastered by it just like Gollum, Isildur, Frodo, Bilbo and everyone else who comes into contact with it (imagined or otherwise: e.g. Gandalf and Galadriel). Now, I know he's the Master of the Ring but that's a title which I think means he is the maker and 'proper' holder of the Ring but he's clearly not the master of it in the way that Tom Bombadil is master.

How'd I get to this? Because it's clear to me that the Ring has fooled Sauron as badly as it fools everyone else. Sauron obviously thought that the Ring could be destroyed and he would remain potent--he was even still able to control the Nazgul and he thought the Ring was destroyed; he was clearly not seeing very clearly if he thought he could, alone and naked, control the Nine when the One was undone. He believed, quite foolishly, that he was in charge and that it was his will alone and unsupported that was ordering events. This is the seductive whispering of the Ring: that you can use its power to fulfil your will and not its own. We see it time and again, promising people the fulfilment of their will, cloaked in the promise that they will be master, not-mastered (Boromir can save Minas Tirith and be a Captain, Gollum can have fish served to him all day and be The Gollum, Bilbo can outlive any other Hobbit, Sam can be the Gardener of Middle-Earth (and tangentially I would add a mystery I've thought of many times here on the Downs...what does the Ring offer Frodo? We are never told...)).

So now I'm wondering if some part of Sauron might have even been grateful to Frodo after the destruction of the Ring. Gandalf says that nothing was created evil and to me, at least, it's pretty clear that nobody is entirely beyond redemption. So in that moment when the Ring is gone, and Sauron realises the full extent of his folly to have believed that he was master when all along he'd been slave, is it impossible to imagine some small shred of him remembering the light of Valinor and feeling gratitude to the hobbits who have saved him???

[Pitchwife]

Interesting, especially your comparison between Sauron and Bombadil. In a way, Bombadil could be seen as Sauron's precise antipode, much more than even Gandalf. In my opinion (based on Eönwe's long post in the pertinent Chapter by Chapter thread), old Tom was immune to the lure of the Ring because he simply didn't care about power and its use for bulldozing reality (to use one of my favourite phrases from Tolkien); he was content to be his own master and let other things be what they were, even Old Man Willow. Sauron, on the other hand, cared about nothing else than power and bossing others around - hence his vulnerability to being deceived by his own creation (what a complicated way of deceiving yourself!).

I don't think, however, that there was anything left in Sauron that could feel grateful to the hobbits for saving him. (Saruman, maybe - his spirit turned west for a last time before it dissolved with a sigh, whereas the last gesture of Sauron's shadow after the fall of Barad-dûr was a futile menace.) I can't see that Sauron was saved at all in any way - rather he lost both his power as a tyrant and the light of Valinor.

[Farael]

I think we are approaching matters from the wrong perspective here. However, there have been so many (and so varied) ideas proposed that I'm not sure if I am merely rephrasing and repeating what others have said.

However, here are my thoughts in the matter:

-Sauron measures others perspective and thus is unable to comprehend why someone would not push their advantage to the limit. He doesn't just defeat his enemies, he CRUSHES them. See how he deals with Aragorn and the Captains of the West? He doesn't just dispatch a force strong enough to defeat them and keeps the rest in reserve for an unexpected eventuality. He lets all heck break lose upon his foes. So, since he's unable to put himself in someone else's shoes, he can't comprehend why Isildur wouldn't ruin every last vestige of him.

-Sauron could not have known for sure the effect the Ring would have had in other peoples. This wasn't a "corrupted" ring like he gave to the dwarves and men. The One Ring was more along the lines of the elven rings! Powerful on their own right and answering to no other will (except that the elven rings would've answered to the One Ring if Sauron had used it)

So, taking those two previous points it would make sense if Sauron had assumed that Isildur, being a great man among great men, had not fallen prey to the ring lure and had destroyed it, since it's what sauron would've done in his place

Now, Sauron is as sure as he can be that the Ring was destroyed. Next thing you know, he rebodies and the foundations of Barad-Dur are still there. There is no doubt in his rational mind that the ring WAS destroyed, thus evidence supports the idea that he in fact had enough innate power to survive that catastrophic event. After all, IF the ring was still around then surely someone would've claimed it and Sauron would have been able to see the clues that must've been clearly left behind.

Then he finds out the ring was NOT destroyed after all. So his certainty that he had survived the destruction of the ring disappeared into thin Mordor air. Therefore, when Frodo makes it to the crack of doom, he has every reason to worry!

After all

'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done.

Gandalf is speaking in past tense. he BELIEVED the ring had perished. Now he knows better.