The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am pretty sure Imlad Morgul was formerly known as Imlad Ithil and Morgulduin likely was Ithilduin...

Hmm...I thought Imlad Morgul was the original name, or in the very least the original name was never given and when the Nazgul came to town it is called Imlad Morgul. Given Minas Ithil (to Minas Morgul) and Ithilduin (to Morgulduin), Imlad Ithil would make sense, but I haven't come across Imlad Ithil before.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hmm...I thought Imlad Morgul was the original name, or in the very least the original name was never given and when the Nazgul came to town it is called Imlad Morgul. Given Minas Ithil (to Minas Morgul) and Ithilduin (to Morgulduin), Imlad Ithil would make sense, but I haven't come across Imlad Ithil before.

Well, it would have to be a complete interpolation, but I think it's a perfectly valid one, myself. It would make no sense to have the early Gondorians building a city in the "Vale of Black Sorcery" or drinking from the headwaters of the "Black Sorcery River." Indeed, it would almost make the takeover of Minas Ithil by the Witch-king not at all an act of Sauron's evil, but a natural restoration of the proper order in the valley--and the (to me obvious) inference that it was named Morgûl, Black Sorcery, because of the Black Sorceror that moved there would be lost completely.

Whether or not the Gondorians previously used Ithil in all cases where Morgûl later sufficed is impossible to be certain--though not unreasonable. It's quite possible, though, that they had "Minas Ithil," "Imlad Isildur," and "Duathduin" for all we know. All that we know is that, in 3018-3019, they all used "Morgûl" and that it seems to be inferential that the names in all three cases followed from the capture of the tower and city.

[Gordis]

Note also that Minas Ithil reflects the name of Isildur and Minas Anor reflects the name of Anarion.
Likely Minas Morgul reflects the name of the Witch-King.

Otherwhise how come both the Gondorians and the Mordorians started to use the same name "Minas Morgul" after 2002? It is unlikely they have agreed on it. So, who was the first to call it "Minas Morgul" and why?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Gordis is not arguing at all, as I understand it, that the Witch-king's personal name was Angmar, but merely demonstrating that this type of usage is made use of by Tolkien in reference to the Witch-king: that is, he is referred to by the land he is identified with as lord. In the case of the Kingdom of Angmar, this is incontrovertible. Personally, I find Gordis's reasoning for a like reference where "Morgûl" is made use of in the text to be convincing.

I am aware of that usage. The fact that he was the 'Lord of Angmar' because he ruled that region would seem to weaken the case for Minas Morgul being his later eponymous capital city rather than strengthening it.

As to who used the name 'Minas Morgul' first, Gandalf called the Black Captain 'a great king and sorceror of old'. I see no problem with the view that it was so named by the Gondorians, who were well aware of the nature of the creatures in command there.

Another question, having to do with this passage:

(Frodo) knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king-- not yet.

TTT The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

The Morgul-king? Why not 'face King Morgul'?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I am aware of that usage. The fact that he was the 'Lord of Angmar' because he ruled that region would seem to weaken the case for Minas Morgul being his later eponymous capital city rather than strenghtening it.

As to who used the name 'Minas Morgul' first, Gandalf called the Black Captain 'a great king and sorceror of old'. I see no problem with the view that it was so named by the Gondorians, who were well aware of the nature of the creatures in command there.

Another question, having to do with this passage:


TTT The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

The Morgul-king? Why not 'face King Morgul'?

In fact, why was neither Morgul nor Angmar ever used as a personal name in anything Tolkien wrote, even when it would have been convenient or apposite, apart from this one instance Gordis has uncovered? Speaking of that, what is this excerpt from, Gordis? What is RC? I've never seen the quotation before, but you appear to be basing your claim on a shorthand note in a commentary piece. I see just as much evidence here for the position that Sauron sometimes went by "S."

But I guess you can call him whatever you like.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by obloquy

In fact, why was neither Morgul nor Angmar ever used as a personal name in anything Tolkien wrote, even when it would have been convenient or apposite, apart from this one instance Gordis has uncovered? Speaking of that, what is this excerpt from, Gordis? What is RC? I've never seen the quotation before, but you appear to be basing your claim on a shorthand note in a commentary piece. I see just as much evidence here for the position that Sauron sometimes went by "S."

That's my thought. If Tolkien meant for 'Morgul' to be the name of the WK, he certainly seems to have gone out of his way to be oblique about it.
Other rulers are referred to as 'King Théoden', ' King Eärnur', and 'King Brand'. Why is WK not once called 'King Morgul'?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's my thought. If Tolkien meant for 'Morgul' to be the name of the WK, he certainly seems to have gone out of his way to be oblique about it.
Other rulers are referred to as 'King Théoden', ' King Eärnur', and 'King Brand'. Why is WK not once called 'King Morgul'?

Perhaps because Théoden, Eärnur, and Brand all have names--and predecessors and successors. The latter is the weaker argument, but it is worth noting, that the Witch-king is the one-and-only King of Angmar and King of Minas Morgûl. Théoden followed Thengel and preceded Éomer. Eärnur followed Eärnil and preceded Elessar. Brand followed Girion and preceded Bain. Granted, this wouldn't prevent the use of a character, at a given moment, referring to the King as "Rohan," but it would contribute greatly to why, in the context of the Appendices and other extra-narrative material, Angmar is referred to as such and no one else is--no one else ever was King of Angmar.

Within the tale, I think it's fair enough to note that this is not a particularly common way of referring to other people, past and present, and my general impression is that it's more literary than spoken--but, that being said, it's also a rather familiar way to speak of a king or lord, the sort of way, perhaps, that would be most likely to come from a peer. Hence, the King of England might refer to Louis N as "France" but it is less likely that an English or French peasant would. A peasant being derogatory would be more like to play off a knock-off of his title or address, as in "His Nibs," and a peasant being respectful would say "the King"--especially a French peasant, whose world would scarce have room for another king.

However, that's a rather long and not particularly well-grounded rambling. Don't take it as a serious argument.

You can take this as more serious, however: my first point in this post about Eärnur, Théoden, and Brand all actually having names, and the implicit point that the Witch-king has no name. This harkens back to a suggestion of mine earlier in the thread, when I pointed out that "Gothmog" need not be the actual name of the Lieutenant of Morgûl, but a mark of the namelessness of the servants of the Enemy. In the same way, the Witch-king has no real name. Presumably he did once, when he was a Second Age lord among lesser men... but he doesn't anymore. Calling him "the Witch-king" is, as the thrust of Gordis's general argument will agree, not giving him a name at all, but a title.

It is perfectly consistent with this treatment to call him, variously, "the Witch-king," "Angmar," or "the Morgûl-king." Each one only individuates him to the extent he needs to be individuated--as the particular Nazgûl in charge. It's notable on that note that there is no name given to the King of the Nazgûl in the Fellowship. Granted, Frodo wouldn't likely have known it--but the Nazgûl never give one out, nor does Aragorn see the need for one beyond "the Nine" or "the Riders." The personalities of the Nazgûl are so far gone, butter stretched over so many vast years of bread.

In this respect, it also strikes me that, as far as this goes, the Orks are less evil than the Nazgûl--which would seem a fair statement in any case--insofar as they still have names: Grishnákh, Uglúk, Gorbag, Shagrat, etc. Of course, they're hardly praiseworthy--they deny any name to those under them, lumping them all as "Snaga"... but I'm not really expecting much.

[Gordis]

Thank you, Formendacil, you have brilliantly answered the questions for me! In fact you answered better than I could do it myself

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As to who used the name 'Minas Morgul' first, Gandalf called the Black Captain 'a great king and sorceror of old'. I see no problem with the view that it was so named by the Gondorians, who were well aware of the nature of the creatures in command there.

I think the Gondorians were well aware of the fact that the person who captured Minas Ithil and ruled it now was the very same Witch-King whom they have defeated in the North. If they had any doubts, the challenges sent by the WK to Earnur would make it abundantly clear. So, the first choice for a new name for Minas Ithil would be to name it simply "the tower of the Witch-King"

Gondorians spoke Sindarin and named places in this language. Morgul means Black Sorcery, Witchcraft.

If the Witch-King, the King of Witchcraft, the king of Black Sorcery, was known in Sindarin as "Aran Morgul", the King of Morgul, then the new place name would be "Minas Morgul" automatically. And both sides, Gondorians ad nazgul alike, could have started to use it independently.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The Morgul-king? Why not 'face King Morgul'?

Formendacil has answered that one.
Because he was the King of Black Sorcery, the Witch-king, not a person whose name translates as "Black Sorcery". Morgul was never a simple personal name, it was more like translation of the"Witch"-part in "the Witch-King" or the "sorcerer king"
(But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king..)

Originally Posted by obloquy

Speaking of that, what is this excerpt from, Gordis? What is RC? I've never seen the quotation before, but you appear to be basing your claim on a shorthand note in a commentary piece. I see just as much evidence here for the position that Sauron sometimes went by "S."

RC is a book by Wayne G. Hammond & Christina Scull, published by HarperCollins. Its full title is "The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion". You can see it here on Amazon.com: RC
What is interesting in this book is that the authors have quoted parts of previously unpublished Tolkien's "the Hunt for the Ring" manuscripts kept in the Marquette University. You must be familiar with other parts of these texts if you have Unfinished Tales. These new Tolkien texts constitute only a small part of the RC book, about 10 pages in whole, I believe, but they are very interesting. There are also excerpts from the unpublished Tolkien's "Time-Schemes" and "Nomenclature". I advise you to buy the book: two-three years ago I have bought a used RC book on Amazon UK for only 3 euros.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Khamûl the Shadow of the East

What I'd like to draw to attention here is that, if one were to place a single comma into the text, right after the name "Khamûl," then the phrase "the Shadow of the East" wouldn't be merely a descriptor of Khamûl, but a possible explanation. Even without the comma to make this a clear apposition, it's still a possible interpretation--one that would be in keeping with my general idea that the Nazgûl haven't retained actual names, but--alas!--no more than cool, unprovable, supposition on my part.

I think "Khamûl" is not a real personal name either.

A good guess would be that Khamûl is a Black Tongue word.
If so, please compare the words "nazgûl" and "Khamûl". The first Black Tongue word is no mystery:
"nazgûl"= "ringwraith"
"nazg"="ring"
"gûl" or "ûl"="wraith"

My guess that "ûl" in "Khamûl" also means "wraith", "shadow".

And then it becomes obvious that it was the nickname given to the nazgûl after he had become a wraith, not at his birth.

The "Shadow of the East" that goes after "ûl" (UT) may be a simple translation of the name. Especially considering that in the East there is a realm called "Khand", which quite probably means "Eastern land".

So basically we have two nazgul, known in the Third Age as "The King of Black Sorcery/Witchcraft" and "The Wraith/Shadow of the East" respectively. Both nicknames have nothing to do with their original names as living Men and their original identities. There could have been other nazgul called "the Shadow of the South" or "the Shadow of Rhun" etc. Some may have got new names from Sauron in memory of the First Age evil heroes as "Gothmog" or well...Glaurung or Ancalagon

Why new names for the nazgul?- because they have left their old identities behind. I don't think they have forgotten who they used to be, but this page in their lives is shut forever. Come on, it happens not only with nazgul. King Elessar had been called Estel in his youth, Thorongil and Aragorn later, but the name he will be remembered by in history is King Elessar.

Moreover in ME a real name is a powerful thing, letting it be generally known makes one vulnerable. Remember Treebeard's reaction?

An Ent?' said Merry. 'What's that? But what do you call yourself? What's your real name?'
'Hoo now!' replied Treebeard. 'Hoo! Now that would be telling! Not so hasty.
[...]
'Nobody else calls us hobbits; we call ourselves that,' said Pippin.
'Hoom, hmm! Come now! Not so hasty! You call yourselves hobbits? But you should not go telling just anybody. You'll be letting out your own right names if you're not careful.'

I guess in Mordor the real original names of the nazgul was top secret classified info, much like the real name of Sauron himself. What was it, really? Nobody knows. Not Sauron= "the Abhorred" certainly.