Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 08-15-2009, 01:27 AM

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

Lush · 08-15-2009, 02:04 AM

I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem.

A Little Green · 08-15-2009, 02:30 AM

I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR.

Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that?

Mithalwen · 08-15-2009, 11:44 AM

Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse....

Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really...

Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in.

David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir.

My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices.

Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many

Tuor in Gondolin · 08-15-2009, 02:09 PM

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

davem · 08-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny".:

No - come on, its clearly meant to be a satirical deconstruction of right-wing extremism 'n' all post-modern 'n' stuff - me 'n' Lush laughed at it anyway..... How do you seriously get from Eowyn's hopeless yearning for death in battle to denouncing Medicare as 'evil'? Besides, a careful reading of LotR clearly shows that Gondor has a National Health Service - "The Houses of Healing" = NHS: treatment free at the point of use- you notice no-one gets asked for their Insurance details before getting treated for the effects of the Black Breath! And I have to say that the Master of the Houses & Ioreth are clearly models for Kenneth Williams & Hattie Jaques in Peter Rogers seminal masterpiece Carry On Matron

Aiwendil · 08-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

davem · 08-16-2009, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

That is hilarious - in an incredibly depressing and frightening way. .

'pplicability, innit? One reason, I suppose, why Tolkien went out of his way to stress that the story had no underlying meaning or message. It has always fascinated me how readers attempt to use Tolkien's writings to support their own religious or political stance. The author of that piece simply gets Eowyn wrong - she's not about what he says she's about. Actually, she's seriously ill - soul sick if you will - & seriously in need of healing herself. And anyone who's been really sick & comes through it to health & happiness knows exactly why Eowyn wishes to become a healer herself. One has to understand the hopeless state she is in, seeking death because life is dead & grey & hopeless, & if she doesn't end it it will just go on & on & on. Coming from a warrior culture its natural that if she is seeking death she should seek it on the field - hopefully achieving some kind of renown in the process - but let's be under no illusion that what she wants is the death: the glory is just the icing on the cake. To present her as an 'ideal', someone women should aspire to be, is idiotic. The writer is simply hearing her words, not what she is saying.

Thus, the writer's final paragraph:

Quote:

Nevertheless, let us all be valiant like Eowyn; break free from the cages of welfare, universal health care, government-controlled Social Security, policies advocating the stealing of money from one group and giving it to another group who didn't earn it, and let all Americans boldly face our destiny with courage, individual effort and the power of God.

borders on the inane - because Eowyn's story has nothing to do with the rightness or wrongness of Welfare or Medicare. One can relate Eowyn's story to the sufferings of contemporary individuals (as one can with the stories of many of the characters) but not to contemporary political arguments. Arguing that big government/welfare/Medicare = Mordor & therefore must be fought by free, right thinking individuals is as silly as arguing that multi-national drug companies & insurance companies = Mordor & government must protect all the people - not just the ones considered 'deserving' (There but for the Grace of God......) & ensure their health & well-being. And those comparisons are 'silly' not because one cannot validly argue the rightness & wrongness of either position, but because neither big government nor big business = Mordor.

Mithalwen · 08-20-2009, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Orofarne · 07-03-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington
recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw,
he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting
people, no doubt also birthers and deathers.

Thankyouthankyouthankyou! Mr. Washington is extremely dreadful, and obviously needs to read the books.
Also, Eowyn is a rather minor character in the books, and I really don't think that Tolkien was remarking on feminism, more on war. Didn't we keep hearing about how Faramir is something of a pacifist, and how the hobbits really didnt like seeing men kill one another? Eowyn was just another handy character to drive that point home, and she was so angry at being left to fester with the noncombatants while her uncle went to die, that she came too. After being very heroic, her renouncement of the warrior's trade is only another way of saying that war is bad. Besides, Tolkien himself fought in WWI, so War Is Bad was probably ground into his skin along with the blood and muck he accumulated in the trenches.

MCRmyGirl4eva · 03-17-2014, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944.

Well, I may not agree with the political view of this, but it does integrate Eowyn's quote well.

cellurdur · 03-20-2014, 09:31 AM

I have felt that Eowyn more than any character has a similar story to Elrond. It's a shame the two of them never really got to speak properly to each other. I think they would have understood each other very well. In the end both of them were happy to give up the sword to be healers.

08-15-2009, 01:27 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Can't resist the temptation to introduce a spot of humour into the proceedings - found this hilarious piece by an American comic I'd never heard of before. Brilliant stuff on Eowyn http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=106944. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

08-15-2009, 02:04 AM	#2
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	I laughed so hard that I ruined my mascara. Thanks, davem. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

08-15-2009, 02:30 AM	#3
A Little Green Leaf-clad Lady Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,571	I think the answer to Elmo's question depends entirely on whether you read Éowyn's tale as a metaphor of a woman's life in general or as the story of one individual. I like to think that it was Éowyn's choice as an individual person and has nothing to do with what Tolkien thought a woman should choose. There is a part of me, though, that is bound to read a more general meaning to her choice. It can be read as "Éowyn was never truly happy playing a man but learns at last her true nature, finds her way to a nice man and a womanly profession and becomes happy as soon as she learns her true and proper place in society". That, I think, is a slightly disturbing way of interpretation but it pops into my mind nevertheless every time I read the LotR. Actually, I find it rather amusing that I should be upset by someone choosing to be a healer rather than a killer, choosing peace over war. If the one making that choice was a man I would go "Wow, that's so cool of him, great choice!" but since it's a woman my first thought is "Oh crap why does she have to submit to oppressive gender roles in order to become happy?" Thinking rationally, turning from a fighter to a healer should be just as cool done by a woman as it would be if done by a man, and yet somehow I don't feel like it. Now where's the equality in that? __________________ "But some stories, small, simple ones about setting out on adventures or people doing wonders, tales of miracles and monsters, have outlasted all the people who told them, and some of them have outlasted the lands in which they were created."

08-15-2009, 11:44 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Healing is not a specifically female thing - in Gondor women serve in the houses of healing but the herb-master is a man. I am sure that Eowyn intended to be a Doctor not a nurse.... Do you think less of Elrond because he chose to be a master of healing but let Glorfindel lead Rivendell's military force? Eowyn is not choosing between a male and female role but between life and death. Anyway she had nowhere left to go in achievement after wiping out the Lord of the Nazgul really... Anyone would think that shield maiding were her sole vocation rather than a necessity borne of the desperate times and situation she was living in. David Doughan gave a splendid talk on Women in Tolkien at Oxonmoot a few years back and it is clear that his attitude changed significantly - he moved from deploring Sayers' Gaudy Night in 1932 to reading de Beauvoir. My theory is that we can thank Priscilla for that .... having intelligent daughters makes a certain degree of feminism inevitable for the most chauvenist man since whatever they think about women in general is tempered by desiring the best for their daughters and that tends not to involve limiting their rights, education and life choices. Priscilla is the possessor of a keen intellect, had a very good education for a women of her generation and became a probation officer which is hardly a typical female career even today. I am sure she and some of the outstanding female students Tolkien had must have influenced some of the antediluvian attitude Tolkien held about women - before he met many Last edited by Mithalwen; 08-15-2009 at 02:39 PM.

08-15-2009, 02:09 PM	#5
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	That bunch of hateful Rethugican tripe by Ellis Washington recommended above is not in the slightest "funny". Btw, he's in the pay of the bigoted Michael Savage. Quite disgusting people, no doubt also birthers and deathers. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

03-20-2014, 09:31 AM	#12
cellurdur Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 276	I have felt that Eowyn more than any character has a similar story to Elrond. It's a shame the two of them never really got to speak properly to each other. I think they would have understood each other very well. In the end both of them were happy to give up the sword to be healers.