TIG: LXV - Our fate lies with...them?

[Nerwen]

I said this earlier:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm not sure; even an experienced player might have killed him to be on the safe side. Whether Hakon had actually spotted him or not (unlikely, given how early that post was), if the bear bought it, the rest of Hakon's bear-talk might look like an attempt at blackmail– "I know who you are, so help us out or I'll tell".

However, having re-read that section, I see that the only living players Hakon could have been referring to are Mira and the phantom. He did in fact claim to suspect both of them– but probably not in a way that would have alarmed the bear, unless said bear was very easily panicked. He starts off suspecting Mira for having been the first to post, then appears to switch after this post:

Originally Posted by the phantom

1) Bear-dude... Please help us kill the villains, for your own good. They can kill you at night or beat you by surviving to the end. They are your most likely roadblock to victory. At night, gun for them.

2) Gifteds, leave decent clues please, so as to prove your identities. Not clues that can be read easily, but coded clues that you can point out after the fact. Yeah, yeah, baddies can fake it, but it at least makes more work for them, and they have to plan it in advance, and if they do so you ought to at least have a claim equal to theirs.

3) I think we should, as a village, agree to set for ourselves an artificial deadline which is 30 minutes before the true one. Last minute voting flurries can be deadly, and we'll feel really foolish if we lynch a gifted right at the end, and if we had only cast our votes sooner that person would've had a chance to prove their identity and divert the lynch. I'm not expecting this idea to be adopted, but I can always dream, can't I?

Originally Posted by Hakon

I agree with all of that. Well people I am off now. I have a new suspect, but not for a wolf.

So it looks as if the phantom was Hakon's new "suspect". It's not clear what Hakon was accusing him of, or on what grounds– since he also agrees with everything phantom says in this post(!); Rikae (#42) apparently saw it as a cobbler-Hakon pointing out a possible gifted-phantom. I've already suggested that the bear may have thought Hakon was the cobbler.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

This far I have to admit I'm not impressed - too much banter, silly quarrels and getting the seer and another person killed on Day1? How does that happen anyway? (Just a rhetorical question, I will find out once I read more. )

Nice to have you back, Lommy!

Just to clear something up: Fea wasn't lynched, she dropped out.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Well, I come back after last night's vote to a fine mess, don't I? Lynched the Seer, lost an ordo!Fea, and two other ordos in the Night.

Honestly, those who would look most dubious are Pitchwife voters, but here's something else: Wouldn't a wolf be more likely to inconspicuously slide into a bandwagon, rather than start or finish one so out in the open?

I know Tum seems suspicious because she was the deciding vote, but I don't think a wolf would do something that brings so much attention to them.

More thoughts, maybe a list, to come.

edit: crossed since Nerwen

[Rikae]

Speak of the devil.

Nessa, you voted me yesterday for personal reasons, did you not? Talk about an easy way out...

[Nessa Telrunya]

Personal reasons? I do not recall saying "Rikae, I'm voting you for personal reasons."

It's nothing against you, just that the way you jumped out at Hakon, when he was only trying to help. You effectively stated that you did not like talking about useless subjects, like how bad Day one is, or the Bear, or surveys, and that worked to take the eyes off you, yet you persisted in actively participating in those same conversations, and steering the talk away from the most important subject-catching a baddie.

But no, I don't think you are a baddie, you've suceeded in catching the spotlight and no wolf would do anything to get so much scrutiny.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Personal reasons? I do not recall saying "Rikae, I'm voting you for personal reasons."

You said you were voting me because you didn't like the way I "jump down people's throats all the time" if I recall correctly. That sounds pretty personal to me.

Originally Posted by Nessa

It's nothing against you, just that the way you jumped out at Hakon, when he was only trying to help. You effectively stated that you did not like talking about useless subjects, like how bad Day one is, or the Bear, or surveys, and that worked to take the eyes off you, yet you persisted in actively participating in those same conversations, and steering the talk away from the most important subject-catching a baddie.

To set the record straight:

I talked about the surveys after the mod's permission, without I would have considered it cheating.

I talked about the bear because I found phantom suspicious and wanted to say why.

I talked about Fea because I was trying to trap baddies.

[Nessa Telrunya]

Originally Posted by Rikae

To set the record straight:

I talked about the surveys after the mod's permission, without I would have considered it cheating.

I talked about the bear because I found phantom suspicious and wanted to say why.

I talked about Fea because I was trying to trap baddies.

Okay, I'll drop the matter, but I can't promise someone else won't pick it up. Now I find myself thinking you an ordo who likes to voice her opinion, rather than a baddie.

Now, The Phantom has somehow managed to stick himself both to the top and bottom of my suspicions. His part in finding Pitch innocent can be interpreted in multiple ways, but that is his own fault for not supporting words with actions. I can see him as maybe being a gifted, but that would be a stretch, and gifteds and baddies are often meshed together.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I have family wanting the computer and I need to say Lauds before noon. If God should give me a private revelation therein about the baddies, I'll undoubtedly be back soon, but barring that, I'm not sure when I'll be back. Soonish rather than laterish, I imagine, but let's emphasize the "ish" either way.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Nessa Telrunya

Personal reasons? I do not recall saying "Rikae, I'm voting you for personal reasons."

It's nothing against you, just that the way you jumped out at Hakon, when he was only trying to help. You effectively stated that you did not like talking about useless subjects, like how bad Day one is, or the Bear, or surveys, and that worked to take the eyes off you, yet you persisted in actively participating in those same conversations, and steering the talk away from the most important subject-catching a baddie.

But no, I don't think you are a baddie, you've suceeded in catching the spotlight and no wolf would do anything to get so much scrutiny.

That last line bugs me... maybe it's just that you haven't experienced some of the wolves this site has produced, Nessa, but there are--or have been, anyway--wolves that would have willingly caught the spotlight (and hence, the scrutiny). And if you're going to pick a Day to do it, Day 1 is the Day, since it's a lot more reasonably possible to argue your way out or survive the aftermath (ie. "not get lynched") if it's on the basis of Day 1, and then in the game after that you seem to have a credibility of having been exonerated. It's not true, of course, because you haven't died and your role hasn't been found out, but I'd say, descriptively, that it works.

All of which said... I'm inclined to agree with you that Rikae is innocent, but your basic premise that a wolf would not have subjected him/herself to the spotlight doesn't fly for me, and I think its possible that we have a wolf or bear among yesterday's loudmouths. Maybe the phantom--he is certainly capable of pulling it off. If he wasn't dead and the seer, it could have been Pitchwife--but, obviously, that's a case of the seer under scrutiny.

Hmm... Hakon's the only other spotlight yesterday that I'm really remembering... and he was, I thought and have been proven correct, in the spotlight very clearly despite himself...

Okay... Maybe the wolves/bear weren't in the spotlight yesterday... or I can't remember everyone who was... but it's not, conceptually, impossible.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Although... Rikae has been defending herself rather vigorously--which is fair, since she's come under a fair amount of suspicion, I guess--but it's sending mixed signals to me in a sense. On the one hand, there's sort of an air of "Fine, whatever: I'm an ordo and you're going to kill me and I'm going to give you all the reasons you shouldn't"--a sense of not caring, in other words... but with a sort of consistent earnestness that, obviously, says she does care.

What can I say? I do care. Partly because I want to help the village and not have everyone waste their time attacking/lynching me (and yes, a wolf can always say that, but there's my thinking for you all to consider) and partly because, I'll admit it, a lot of the accusations hurt my pride, since they seem to imply I am either a stupid or dishonorable player.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I wasn't attacking you, per se. An innocent would certainly have an interest in pointing it out, but so would a wolf to a packmate who'd just made a dangerous error. The way you worded it seemed to me a bit more along the lines of the latter scenario, that's all.

I don't think a wolf-Mac would have pointed out a wolf-Mira's error in that case, but hoped it would be overlooked. Although actually, I'm inclined to think Mira only made an honest mistake, anyway, or is not a wolf or bear in any event. If she were a wolf or bear and thought the phantom was gifted, she'd try to paint him as a wolf and get him lynched or, failing that, kill him herself toNight - the worst she could reasonably be is a cobbler, which she might, but we have bigger fish to fry. If Mac were a wolf or bear, pointing out the cobbler's cobblerishness would be a silly move.

[Rikae]

just to add to the above - a silly move right now, I mean. If it were necessary for the baddies to find a scapegoat, later in the game, probably, baddies going after the cobbler would make sense, but it doesn't really make sense now.