Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I'm not sure I agree that this has much bearing on the issue. As I recall, what he actually said was that he liked all the Peter Wimsey books up to Gaudy Night, which he did not. So it's not as though he was ever prejudiced against female authors. And Gaudy Night simply isn't everyone's cup of tea (I'll take The Nine Tailors over it any day).

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

[Lindale]

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Lindale

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

Anyway I think this is of little consequence, relative to davem & company's arguments about what went on in Eowyn's head.

In my opinion, Haleth was a terrible leader, who caused a whole lot of unnecessary suffering to her people with her pride and her pointless quest to go ever more west. But that's another thread.

[Aiwendil]

the Nine Tailors is creepiest certainly but you don't think the subject matter of Gaudy Night pertinent? Not so much women authors as women in academia.

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

Hang on. Wasn't Haleth a woman who defended her home and people when her brother and father fell? The point of my bringing this up is to point out that perhaps, women defending themselves with the sword isn't as unlikely as one would think; and that the folk of Haleth are the really distant ancestors of the Rohirrim.

As I recall, the Rohirrim are probably 'cousins' of the House of Hador, rather, who never crossed over the Blue Mountains. But I cannot recall a source for that.

In any case, the Halethrim are undoubtedly another very important topic in dealing with women and feminism in Tolkien. As Elmo suggests, it would make an interesting thread in itself (I can't say I agree with Elmo's opinion of Haleth).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Sure, I just don't think that whether one happens to like Gaudy Night necessarily says much about one's opinions on female authors or on women in academia.

True but I think there was more to it - but I need to locate my notes to remember what. So I'll go and dig.

[Faramir Jones]

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor. If, for example, an ordinary Rider ordered to stay in Rohan behaved the same way she did, he would quite rightly be seen as having deserted his post and disobeyed orders, and would suffer serious disciplinary action. Eowyn, however, did not.

While she is a member of the royal family, this would add to the obligation to behave properly, to set a standard of behaviour for the people. My own view is that she was very lucky in fighting the Witch-king and being very seriously wounded. This was, presumably, seen by many as a sufficient punishment for her desertion.

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

[Lindale]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

I think they love her too much to judge her... and remember that this was a time of war; could they afford to think of such "trivial" things, like her joining them? Would they perhaps be angry when they discover her? Likely, but I think they couldn't spend too much time for that; the most they could have done was send her home with an escort and a terrible sermon.

Or perhaps, would they have deemed the judgment of making Eowyn regent a bad idea (because girls-can't-follow-orders-the-way-real-men-could)? I like the idea. Remember that it wasn't Theoden's or Eomer's choice to make her regent? It was Hama's suggestion, who thought that the last of the House of Eorl weren't Theoden and Eomer but Eowyn. That'll justify chauvinist thoughts that politics and war aren't really women's cup of tea, and that Eowyn, who already knows "necessary" self-defense (think "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"), is meant to stay at home and prepare/keep safe her men's food and bed.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If that hadn't happened, and had she survived the Battle of Pelennor Fields slightly wounded or unscathed, I've a strong suspicion that either her uncle or brother would have had the unenviable task of sitting in judgement on her actions.

What do people think?

I think that she was beyond caring about such things. She would have gone out looking for death by some other, probably less honourable means if she had survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

There is also an issue with Eowyn that hasn't been explored as much as it should. Her uncle made her regent of the kingdom in his absence and that of her brother. Ruling Rohan in the place of Theoden was, I'm sure, a serious responsibility. (I'm presuming here that she exercised real power, and wasn't a nominal regent, with an 'advisor' or 'advisors' exercising the real power.)

Due to this, I've had an issue over the last few years with her deserting her post as regent to fight in Gondor.

What I'm wondering is:

How did she get away with it at all? She was left behind in order to be the acting ruler of Rohan - but she disappeared. How was she not instantly missed by those left behind in Edoras? Why did someone not immediately ride at full speed after Theoden to inform him that the Lady Eowyn was missing?

In any case, what did the people of Rohan think when their ruler went missing? Any thoughts?