Elves and Gondor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would side with Rumil here. And as for the points above, I would agree with Inziladun that we have to approach all the thoughts carefully and not with too daring fantasies. The Wood-Elves of Mirkwood were a "barbaric" and remote people, being friendly only with the folk of Lake-Town and being divided even from their cousins in Lórien by dangerous country. The less would they need to meddle into any Gondorian affairs. I would believe that Anborn's remark about black squirrels was indeed just an old folk story, something like a wise remark passed down among the hunter masters and their apprentices as a curiosity about the outside world: "Good shot, son! Now you see, it's not that hard to shoot a squirrel from this distance. Next time, we can try with mice. Ha, only you remember, if you ever came to Mirkwood, son, they have black squirrels there, and it's dark there, so you won't actually see them! Ho Ho Ho! Okay, we're done for today, take your bow and let us go home."

Originally Posted by Inziladun

From that it certainly appears that some men did enter the Wood from time to time, else the stories those two had heard and the wording they used to describe them would not be so similar.
My question now is if an enchanted dream-state awaited the uninvited and the overly curious man, why were some apparently able to return to their fellows and tell them of the experience?
Again, I can't see sovereign rulers of either Gondor or Rohan sending anyone to Lórien on any sort of official business. So why would escapees be allowed?

As for this, Boromir's and Éomer's knowledge might have been as well derived from the same source. Having a real basis, for sure, but what makes you believe that actually people would enter the Wood and return? They would not pass into any more "important" places and return, for certain. I think if anybody returned, it would be just so that he was the reluctant one from the company, and just saw his companions disappear in the forest and they did not return, and when he was looking for them, he didn't find them, perhaps only something they dropped or left in the wood (like for example some guy's most prized cloak, which he just left lying in the woods, because it hindered him when chasing some phantasm, but finding the cloak was enough for the one who came looking after him to convince him that his friend was lost, for it was well known he would never drop the cloak on his own will). Or you can imagine it, once again, akin to Bilbo's experience. A group of adventurous Rohanians camps by the woods, suddenly they see eerie lights flickering behind the trees, two of them say "ooh, look, let's go there and see!" and the third one, less brave, wants to remain there, but his friends go and are never heard of again. The third guy returns to Rohan with a tale about another claim by the Elven Lady of the Golden Wood.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The River Limlight, the northern border of Rohan, was only about 100 miles from Lorien.

There surely must have been SOME occasional contact between Elves from Lorien and men from the Wold.

In addition, men (Beornings and others) still lived on the banks of the Anduin north of Lorien, down to maybe the Gladden Fields. Here again, they might have had some contact with Lorien and would most certainly have had contact with Elves from Mirkwood. I say that because there was certainly interaction between the Mirkwood Elves, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Esgaroth. In turn, these people (particularly Dwarves) travelled into Eriador via the High Pass that was guarded by the Beornings.

All these comings and goings must have led to some residual contacts at least with Gondor, not least by way of the Anduin and via Rohan.

[The Might]

I don't know what to say about the Wold... it was only sparsely populated by people like Wídfara with herds of horses. I doubt that such people had very much interest in exploring anything across the Limlight.

I could definitely see the Beornings and the Woodmen having contact to Elves, but I am not quite sure how this would connect the Elves to Gondor. I mean, I doubt many Gondorians went north to visit the Woodmen and then happened to see some of Thranduil's folk hunting or something similar...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

The River Limlight, the northern border of Rohan, was only about 100 miles from Lorien.

There surely must have been SOME occasional contact between Elves from Lorien and men from the Wold.

I believe not (beyond the random night sightings of a few Haldirs, or a few crazed Rohirrim wandering too far, both as mentioned above). The Galadhrim were very, very isolative people (see also UT, of Celeborn and Galadriel for some details about the folk) and they would not stick their nose out of the woods except for some scouting parties, who would however remain hidden and walking out of the sight of humans. There was also certainly not as much need for them to visit Rohan, they would stop there a few times but their main concern would be checking the other directions from their home as possible lands of threat from the Orcs, Wargs and everything.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

In addition, men (Beornings and others) still lived on the banks of the Anduin north of Lorien, down to maybe the Gladden Fields. Here again, they might have had some contact with Lorien and would most certainly have had contact with Elves from Mirkwood. I say that because there was certainly interaction between the Mirkwood Elves, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Esgaroth. In turn, these people (particularly Dwarves) travelled into Eriador via the High Pass that was guarded by the Beornings.

All these comings and goings must have led to some residual contacts at least with Gondor, not least by way of the Anduin and via Rohan.

What you are saying about the contact among the groups in the North is true, but I see no reason for contact between the peoples living north of Gladden Fields and the peoples living south of Lórien. Why? Let me say just two words: Dol Guldur. Also, the places around Tol Brandir have not been safe in the latter Third Age. As Boromir (or was it Aragorn?) mentioned, the Orcs were becoming more daring and could have been often waiting at the left bank of Anduin itself (as it happened to Fellowship). And before that, earlier in the TA, before the fall of the Dragon, the Wilderness was far more wild and the realm of the Beornings did not seem to reach as far or be as strong (that happened only after the renewal of Erebor, which brought the need of new trade routes and the Beornings profited from guarding the routes). Also, the reach of Dol Guldur was considerably longer in the earlier times.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

Though the ultimate source of Denethor's knowledge was indeed secret, I think he did have counsellors with whom he met to discuss intelligence and strategic matters. I can see rumours emanating from those meetings filtering down to the citizenry.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, now that's a significant quote. However, I do not believe that this would be a proof of some contact of Gondor with Beornings or Thranduil's folk. Rumors pass, even the Hobbits in the Shire knew about Mordor being inhabited again - and how far it is from Mordor to the Shire? The Gondorians, diminished however their realm may have been, still probably kept a close eye on what's going on in the East, and also upon Mirkwood. It was almost their border! The Rohirrim would know that forces are stirring in Mirkwood again. The Gondorians had numerous experiences with that from earlier days, when their realm reached far beyond Anduin. But the Elves of Mirkwood are far too remote for the Gondorians to reach. And anyway, rumors pass. The kingdom of Erebor was certainly significant enough* so that the Gondorians would know that the Easterlings are threatening it, but they probably had hardly any contact with it at all, not any diplomatic contacts. Isn't it in a way interesting to see late Third-Age Kingdom of Dale in the eyes of Gondor as a faraway rich and relatively powerful country?
Also what you said about Palantír doesn't necessarily mean that Denethor would not share his knowledge. He would not say from where it came, but he could tell his generals about this (and we know he did share some facts, as people were wondering how wise he is and how surprisingly much he knows). So he could also see the war in the far northeast and so it reached Beregond's ears.

*A side note (off-topic, but it occured to me now) - actually, curious, isn't it, just from the economic point of view: it would make sense for the Gondorians to actually maintain contact with Erebor, and the Northernmen in Dale and Lake-Town (as in old times anyway). It would be nice to have a route around the eastern borders of Mirkwood. But alas, such journey was probably impossible by the end of the Third Age, as the threat would be far too big. Easterlings and Dol Guldur - not a nice view. The only ones who would come to Erebor from south would be the messengers of Sauron... just as they did.

But it makes a lot more sense, in the light of this, that there were basically only two major trade routes in M-E, that is the west-east one from let's say Lindon to Erebor and the other NW-SE from Lindon as far as Gondor. And now it is clear to me at last why they form this sort of "incomplete triangle": as the third part of the triangle, i.e. Gondor-Erebor, just wouldn't work now.

(x-ed with Inzil, and I see he brings the same point)

[JeffF.]

Don't forget the wine of Dorwinion (Northeast of the Sea of Ruhn) which was valued by Thradnuil's elves (from the Hobbit).

There must have been much overseas trade by Gondor (with whom I can't speculate) in order for a powerful people like the Corsairs of Umbar to pirate from.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

Don't forget the wine of Dorwinion (Northeast of the Sea of Ruhn) which was valued by Thradnuil's elves (from the Hobbit).

There must have been much overseas trade by Gondor (with whom I can't speculate) in order for a powerful people like the Corsairs of Umbar to pirate from.

Yep, Dorwinion is quite interesting place by the way, though I wonder whether by the time of the War of the Ring it wasn't either ruled by the Easterlings, or directly taken from them by Bardings. But I was referring to the major trade routes, this was probably just a very small one. Anyway, we are getting off topic... but the question of Umbar is actually interesting, it would maybe do for its own thread.