Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Alfirin]

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some history between Eowyn and Elfhelm. I don't mean romatically but maybe in more of a mentor role. Maybe it was Elfhelm who taught her swordsmanship (I don't seem to recall any mention of how old Elfhelm was if he is a well seasoned warrior in his mid to late 50's or even early 60's, he could have already been a good strong warrior (and as such, a potential effective teacher for Eowyn) when Eowyn was a child. This would also fit with her joining Elfhelm's group, it would be the onle place where, if she was unmasked on the way she probably could get away with continuing on the ride rather than being sent home.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some history between Eowyn and Elfhelm. I don't mean romatically but maybe in more of a mentor role. Maybe it was Elfhelm who taught her swordsmanship (I don't seem to recall any mention of how old Elfhelm was if he is a well seasoned warrior in his mid to late 50's or even early 60's, he could have already been a good strong warrior (and as such, a potential effective teacher for Eowyn) when Eowyn was a child. This would also fit with her joining Elfhelm's group, it would be the onle place where, if she was unmasked on the way she probably could get away with continuing on the ride rather than being sent home.

According to UT Elfhelm was part of the Muster of Edoras, so I'd think that at least a possibility.

[Rumil]

OK,

lots of what-ifs here, but,

Suppose Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn. Why allow her to go? This might bring us back to the original question!

For some reason I've always though of Elfhelm as a youngish chap, 20s-30s anyway, no idea why!

Anyway. Imagine that Elfhelm was a friend of Eowyn (even just possibly rather liked her in a romantic way!), and of course the top nobles would all know one-another pretty well. Why be sympathetic to Eowyn's wish to ride to battle? He probably wasn't aware of her deathwish. Perhaps this gives us some insight into Rohirric gender roles with respect to warfare.

Did Elfhelm feel that it was Eowyn's 'right' to go into battle as a shieldmaiden, should she choose to do so? I could certainly imagine a friend of Eomer doing the same for him if he had been 'left on the bench'.

Perhaps this was based on some old saga or song or something that provided legendary precedent, or a real incident from Rohan's past? Maybe Elfhelm had lost hope too and thought it was more glorious for Eowyn to go down fighting in a hopeless battle than wait for Rohan to be over-run?

Eomer I think later denies that any other women of Rohan have ridden to battle, but did he personally check all 6000 'men'? - He'd have got some funny looks!

[Lalwendë]

Well for one I don't think making any kind of statement against women's rights in the modern world via the medium of Lord of the Rings would even have been on Tolkien's radar - too often we find political hobbyhorses and latch them onto his work and they just don't prove to be there.

Eowyn's situation and how it came into being is much more interesting than some odious allegory of mysogyny as a matter of fact

How did she come to be there in the first place? She was originally conceived as a romantic foil for Aragorn before Arwen raised her head, and as such I suspect we'd have seen her in a very different role. She remained, however, and assumed a more complex part.

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Her sword skills have evidently been gained previously as you just don't pick up a blade one day and instinctively know what to do with it, that only happens in films It's not entirely unfeasible that Rohirrim women knew some basic skills in self defence and basic combat - they would have homesteads to defend after all when their men were on military service. And Tolkien isn't shy of throwing us a few powerful, feisty females when he wants to, so the argument he hated the thought of a 'shield maiden' on principle doesn't cut any ice with me.

But then my final thought about Eowyn is this reason why she decides to go haring off into battle. Ostensibly, it's because of a horrible case of unrequited love for Aragorn and her sense of desperation, but I always see more to it than that. She loves him as an incredibly idealised figure, admires the hope for military success he brings, is stirred by the promise more of victory than of romance.

Eowyn in this view isn't even a woman at all, she's the young Tommy, stirred by news reports and posters of Lord Kitchener into signing up and taking the King's Shilling. Signing up for the trenches despite knowing that death is almost inevitable. She's the boy warrior following the idealised captain over the top despite being ordered to stay behind. The kind of figure Tolkien, sadly, will have recognised all too well.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She's a member of a royal household and high status, and second in line to the throne. So the request that she stay behind to govern Rohan is one she might well have expected even if she were male, following the traditional 'heir and a spare' rule of thumb. Yes, it could have been that Eomer would return and take up his own place again, but it was also likely she would have been left a Queen in charge of a realm stripped of menfolk - a huge responsibility to bear. So I don't think that the request she stay behind was a cut and dried case of 'sexism'.

Good to see you back posting, Lalwendë!

Wasn't there an almost parallel incident to this in the appendixes when a (male) heir to the throne of Gondor was ordered to remain in Osgilath (or Minas Tirith) but came to the battle anyway in disguise, only to get himself killed, along with the king and the rest of his sons?

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

Also, doing the wrong thing is usually (or always) punished in LotR, but Eowyn is rewarded with both the glory she sought and with the happiness she thought was lost forever. Therefore I don't believe Tolkien had her wilfully ride off to battle in order to make a negative example of it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Anyway, I don't think Eowyn was second or even third in line for the throne. Rohan and Gondor were patriarchal societies and only male descendants were considered heirs proper. She was only a temporary deputy and her case of "sexism" was perhaps not cut and dried, but it was a strong one nonetheless. It's been a while since I read the dialogue between Aragorn and Eowyn but as far as I can remember it's very balanced and hard to call. When Aragorn tells her to stay he makes many good points, but she too comes up with strong counter-arguments.

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.

Even under primogeniture the daughters of a King never relinquish the right to be heirs, they just take second place to their brothers - which results in interesting conflicts at times - see Matilda Vs Stephen and The Anarchy in the 12th century!

It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There isn't any precedent to judge it from in Rohan, but in Numenor in the better days women took their place as rightful heirs and I can't see Rohan being different if, as it appears, Eowyn was considered capable enough to be trained in the sword to a lesser or greater degree.
...
It's a good topic to look up though and see what rules were in place in various kingdoms at different times.

I'm aware that Numenor had reigning queens but that wasn't that an alteration in the laws Aldarion made to avoid having to snuggle with Erendis again while still keeping the sceptre in the family? And wasn't this practice discontinued in Gondor later on? It's hard to believe that there were no kings or stewards who died with only daughters left behind anyway. Yes, this should be checked up, but not by me as I don't have time at present. Shouldn't even be writing this...

[Mithalwen]

Elfhelm from the evidence of UT is a pragmatist and read the situation most accurately at the Fords. He does not seem to be the type to be swayed by sentiment or to be a slave to orders when it contradicted his judgement.. he followed Theodred's summons s bypassing the King.

I find Elfhelm one of the fascinating minor characters .. you can get quite a vivid picture from quite a little.

Clearly Elfhelm and Eowyn would have known each other well. He had been marshal (Though not Marshal of the Mark) at Edoras since 3012 when Eowyn was sixteen. With her Uncle increasingly under the malign influence of Saruman via Grima, and her cousin and brother based at Helms Deep and Aldburg respectively as the strongholds of their Marks, it is quite likely that Elfhelm was a confidant and perhaps protector from the unwelcome attentions of Wormtongue.

We know that Erkenbrand was left in military command of Rohan because he was an older man of dignity and authority. Grimbold was his nephew and there seems to be a parity between him and Elfhelm - Elfhelm doens not override him at the Fords, Grimbold does not assume control of the forces of Edoras. If you work on the basis that Erkenbrand was an approximate contemporary of Theoden and Elfhelm a generation younger then they are likely to be mid thirties to mid forties - contemporaries of Theodred which may be why when Grima spread his poison they were inclined to follow his lead rather than his father's. I would think it unlikely that one not of the blood royal would rise to the rank of Marshal much before 30 no matter how able they were so that ties in with the date that Elfhelm took up his post at Edoras.

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

To belatedly get back to the point. I think Elfhelm was astute enough to know that what might befall Eowyn at home could be as bad or worse than a battlefield . Maybe he knew she would find a way anyway and so the best thing would be to have her where he could keep an eye on her. Maybe he had some premonition - a disobedience but like so many a necessary one for the eventual success of the quest.

[Lalaith]

With regard to the normalcy or abnormalcy of Eowyn's behaviour...lets not forget one thing. She was not unique, she had a cultural prototype instantly recognisable to readers who knew Norse literature.

This word, shield-maiden, existed for centuries before Tolkien put it in the mouth of Eowyn. The Germanic cultures of northern Europe had shieldmaidens aplenty. I have to say that my response, when I first read the story, was similar to Ibrinidil's...I thought of her as a human being damaged by grief, love and despair, rather than fighting a pre-determined gender role.

But giving this question a purely critical response, I have to assume that Tolkien must really have loved Eowyn as a creation - in the same way that I think Shakespeare loved Beatrice, and grew to love Lear. 'Dernhelm the Young' in his/her glory on the fields of Pelennor is possibly the finest literary moment in the whole of the trilogy, and you can't write like that about a character you don't love.

[Mithalwen]

I think you are right Lalaith... in on of the HoME volumes he decides Aragorn is too old and grim for her. Will go dig it up..I can't remember if Faramir made his unanticipated appearance in the tale before or after.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have a theory - though not one I can prove that Elfhelm may have been a kinsman of Theodred on his mother's side, The Rohirrim tend to have similar names in their families and since Hild was the sister of Helm I just wondered if Elfhelm might be kin to Elfhild... Not necessarily brother ..if he were the king's brother in law it would surely be mentioned, maybe a cousin. A fanciful idea I know but not totally implausible. In the structure of the story he would then be a kind of foil for Imrahil (another of my beloved minor characters).

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

The recent thread on names has got me thinking something, do you think it is possible that one of the reasons Eowyn chose the name "Durnhelm" was that because of the simlilarity of names tradtion it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

Well, I think it's the last thing you said - "helm" is just a common ending. There have been probably dozens of soldiers in the muster who had names like Windhelm or Torthelm and nobody was asking them if they are not perchance the Marshal's cousins. It would be about the same thing as if you kept asking every Charlie whether he is not perchance related to the Prince of Wales. It would not have occured to anybody to even think about that.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

it might make it sound like she was kin (mabe some nephew or cousin) to Elfhelm, and therefore minimize any questions by rank and file members of the muster about her being there. Yes I know that most of the proven samenesses are of the first part of the surname, and that "helm" is a really common ending but it does make me think....

I think her choice may have been a tribute to him or a joke but I think the text makes it pretty clear that Elfhelm's men know exactly who Dernhelm was - it speaks of "an understanding"between them. Also presumably since Elfhelm was the Marshal based at Edoras, his eored would also have been and known Eowyn. Tolkien's names are seldom without significance. There aren't really enough Rohirric names to get a definitive pattern but it may be more than coincidence that the Rohan's great generals Elfhelm and Erkenbrand "Precious Sword") have suitably military names whereas the humble errand rider is Ceorl. The element Theod- may have only been used in the Royal house (or by very aspirational parents!).

[ElanorFB]

I think Tolkien and women are somewhat difficult. But he makes up for it with Eowyn and Galadriel. Galadriel is strong and obviously beautiful and in control in her relationship.

With Eowyn, yes she pines for Aragorn, but hey, she liked him. I think that's a fair reaction without having to be dependent on men.

[Faramir Jones]

Here's an interesting comment Tolkien made about Eowyn, in a letter of around 1963:

Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

(Letters, Letter 244.)

As has been said, she was presumably trained on how to fight, but expected to do so only defensively, something for which there was historical precedent among the Rohirrim's ancestors.

Tolkien had had some military training, but did not see himself as becoming a professional soldier. As we know, however, he and so many other young men, quite civilian, became servicemen due to World War I.

Tolkien said that he was not a 'good officer', and said that the character of Faramir was the character in LotR most like him, but with far more courage. Like him, two of his sons became servicemen, this time due to World War II.

One can see a resemblance between Eowyn and Tolkien's generation, as well as that of his sons'. Her desire to be 'a shieldmaiden no longer' seems similar to that of many servicemen like Tolkien and later his sons, who wanted to leave soldiering behind now that the war was won, and get on with their disrupted civilian lives. It's no more different than Sam Gamgee, Merry Brandybuck, and Pippin Took after they returned to the Shire, getting back to ordinary, civilian life, marrying and having families.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Here's an interesting comment Tolkien made about Eowyn, in a letter of around 1963:

Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.

(Letters, Letter 244.)

As has been said, she was presumably trained on how to fight, but expected to do so only defensively, something for which there was historical precedent among the Rohirrim's ancestors.

Tolkien had had some military training, but did not see himself as becoming a professional soldier. As we know, however, he and so many other young men, quite civilian, became servicemen due to World War I.

Tolkien said that he was not a 'good officer', and said that the character of Faramir was the character in LotR most like him, but with far more courage. Like him, two of his sons became servicemen, this time due to World War II.

One can see a resemblance between Eowyn and Tolkien's generation, as well as that of his sons'. Her desire to be 'a shieldmaiden no longer' seems similar to that of many servicemen like Tolkien and later his sons, who wanted to leave soldiering behind now that the war was won, and get on with their disrupted civilian lives. It's no more different than Sam Gamgee, Merry Brandybuck, and Pippin Took after they returned to the Shire, getting back to ordinary, civilian life, marrying and having families.

I agree, Eowyn was very much like the 'Tommy', idealising the fight and the struggle, and even idealising the Captain she followed. And afterwards, in the shocking light of day, having survived, keen to get straight back to an ordinary life.

It's also true that Faramir is very much like the reality of the men who fought in WWII. He resigned himself to his Duty, he did his duty to the very best of his ability, but he did not relish it and he was pleased to be released of it, though still retaining pride in having taken his part.

It's interesting how Faramir wants to make a 'garden' of Ithilien and Eowyn also desires this kind of life:

'I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun,' she said; 'and behold! the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'

Compare that with much of the Art produced during and following the Great War, so much of it infused with this emotional sense of loss and longing for a pastoral England that if it had not already gone, was fast going. Vaughan Williams wrote his Pastoral Symphony and revised Fantasia on a Theme by Tallis; Elgar's Cello Concerto; Holst's Planets Suite; Stanley Spencer's murals; and of course, Tolkien's very earliest writings. I could probably gather up some more examples, because I've been looking into this lately...

There was also the Modernist approach of course, but many people were also busily creating elegiac, more backwards looking pieces of music, art and literature. So Faramir and Eowyn wishing to leave the memory of war behind isn't unusual, and in fact it's what their creator did.

[davem]

It was a bayonet-school of instruction, and "O. C. Bayonets"--Col.
Ronald Campbell--was giving a little demonstration. It was a curiously
interesting form of exercise. It was as though the primitive nature in
man, which had been sleeping through the centuries, was suddenly
awakened in the souls of these cockney soldier--boys. They made sudden
jabs at one another fiercely and with savage grimaces, leaped at men
standing with their backs turned, who wheeled round sharply, and
crossed bayonets, and taunted the attackers. Then they lunged at the
hanging sacks, stabbing them where the red circles were painted. These
inanimate things became revoltingly lifelike as they jerked to and
fro, and the bayonet men seemed enraged with them. One fell from the
rope, and a boy sprang at it, dug his bayonet in, put his foot on the
prostrate thing to get a purchase for the bayonet, which he lugged out
again, and then kicked the sack.

"That's what I like to see," said an officer. "There's a fine
fighting-spirit in that lad. He'll kill plenty of Germans before he's
done."

Col. Ronald Campbell was a great lecturer on bayonet exercise. He
curdled the blood of boys with his eloquence on the method of attack
to pierce liver and lights and kidneys of the enemy. He made their
eyes bulge out of their heads, fired them with blood-lust, stoked up
hatred of Germans--all in a quiet, earnest, persuasive voice, and a
sense of latent power and passion in him. He told funny stories--one,
famous in the army, called "Where's 'Arry?"

It was the story of an attack on German trenches in which a crowd of
Germans were captured in a dugout. The sergeant had been told to blood
his men, and during the killing he turned round and asked, "Where's
'Arry? . . . 'Arry 'asn't 'ad a go yet."

'Arry was a timid boy, who shrank from butcher's work, but he was
called up and given his man to kill. And after that 'Arry was like a
man-eating tiger in his desire for German blood.

He used another illustration in his bayonet lectures. "You may meet a
German who says, 'Mercy! I have ten children.' . . . Kill him! He
might have ten more." http://infomotions.com/etexts/gutenb...02/nicbt10.htm

Let's not forget that one of the main reasons for war is that a great many people get off on it...... (or that Eowyn says she will no longer "take joy only in the songs of slaying."

[glrii]

Everyone realizes that Worm Tongue had placed a spell on King Théoden to make him feel old and take away his hope, and that Gandalf broke that spell allowing him to return to health. What I also noticed are the words of Gandalf in the houses of healing about Eowyn. Gandalf said, Think you that Worm tongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears. Gandalf is saying, worm tongue had also placed a spell on Eowyn to make her feel and act the way she did. The spell was broken not by Gandalf but by the love of Faramir. That is why she had the change of heart at the end. She may have been unhappy with her role, but her depression, abandonment of her post and suicidal tendencies were from Worm Tongue’s spell.

[Galadriel55]

I don't think that Elfhelm knew that Dernhelm was Eowyn, but he did know about Merry. I don't know how Eowyn convinced hi to keep quiet about Merry, but I'm quite sure that she did not reveal herself. I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.
About Eowyn's feminism. It is not bad; she has it and had it all along. It was just shoved into her deepest corner and replaced by dreas of warriors. This was sharpened by the years that she spent looking after Theoden and feeling her helplesness and lack of power. In a way, she was overcoe and blinded by that dream. When she talked to Faramir, he woke the other nature in her. It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.
Eowyn is not THE woman, as Tolkien views them. Look at Arwen, Galadriel, Rosie, and Goldberry! They are totally different, by character, by their "role in the family" and their idea of what they could or should be.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I've thought of her commanding Elfhelm to keep silent, but then it says that all the troops seeed not to notice Merry. It would be a bit hard to keep hundreds of people fro gossip that would sooner or later reach Theoden's ears.

Merry didn’t know that Derhelm was Éowyn until she revealed herself before the Nazgûl. But it might be easier to keep her identity secret from Merry than from the other riders, most of whom presumably knew one another and would be curious about this new addition to their éored.

Tolkien does not say how the secret was kept, but it seems to me most likely that Elfhelm had commanded his troops not to notice Merry. But why would he command this, presumably at Éowyn’s word, if he had not had some reason to trust and obey Éowyn? It is simplest for me to imagine that he knew who she was and obeyed her for that reason, perhaps in return for some previous favour she had done him. Éowyn would have been well known to him to be a capable shieldmaiden and fighter and so Elfhelm ordered his men not to notice either Éowyn or Merry and they obeyed.

Possibly some of Elfhelm’s men also recognized her, but said nothing. And so, because they said nothing, no word of Éowyn’s presence reached Théoden.

But these are only my imaginings about a matter of which Tolkien does not write and I might be wrong. Merry himself may never thought to have asked, or may not have told what he later found out to Frodo, or Frodo may not have written it down, or Tolkien may be imagined not to have translated it.

It is a mistake to call it feminism, because it is also present in Faramir and other people. It is more like the desire to preserve and create rather than destroy and kill. It is not the kitchen that Eowyn returns to, it's just a different for of freedom.

Indeed! While being a shieldmaiden was not a common thing among the Rohirrim, it was acceptable. Like as not there were other shieldmaidens among the Rohirrim riders on the journey to Gondor, though Tolkien does not mention them.