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[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

As a side question in this thread, what in the world made people so ignorant of other lands in Middle Earth? The distances between, say, Rivendell and Gondor were not that great. And Lorien was even closer to Minas Tirith. I can't believe that, for hundreds of years, there was no commerce, let alone contact (wouldn't the men of Gondor have been smoking Old Toby?).

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

Yeah, and even at the height of Roman power, the lands beyond the borders of the Empire were often unknown and mythical even it the distance to them wasn't that great. Scandinavia for example was largely unrecorded by Roman Historians, who speculated based on scant knowledge that a wondrous Ultima Thule lay north of all known civilization.

But to return to the original question: What would have happened if a small group of travellers, with intent unknown, were to find the way to Elrond's abode? That is an intriguing question to speculate on. Would they be met welcomed, wined and dined, or would they be met with hostility?

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Also, what did Rivendell look like? I suppose it was a well-manned stronghold, capable of withstanding an assault from a strong army, because it it wasn't, Sauron would no doubt have over-thrown it long ago. Sauron would have known more or less were Rivendell lay, wouldn't he? Since it's located in a deep valley, it seems like a siege should be fairly easy to stage, no?

I guess that's just the point. Gandalf himself in the Hobbit, and he must have been there many, many times, wasn't sure about the location of the valley itself and had to look around all the time - as Mith has already mentioned. I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Let us not also forget that by the time of establishing, Rivendell was actually surrounded by Sauron's forces, but not defeated. Back then, though, I believe there were far more soldiers there than in the late Third Age. However, it's interesting to note that Rivendell was actually established as a temporary (or so it probably seemed back then) camp of defense against Sauron. (Elrond as a commander of a part of army was basically besieged there, being driven into wilderness, and he probably saw this nice hidden valley which was easy to protect, and so he did. Something along the lines of Helm's Deep.)

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I believe Mnemo's idea of "lesser Girdle of Melian" is also quite plausible and fits my mental image of the kind of defence surrounding Rivendell.

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, the vale was indeed protected by a Ring of Power, so certainly a 'girdle' meant to confuse and hinder enemies makes sense. Galadriel as well protected Lothlorien in the same manner, confounding Sauron's attempts to discover the movements and thoughts of the Wise.

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.
Was it something along the lines of only those dwelling there with the wielder of the Ring being able to penetrate the barrier (and bring outsiders with them) under ordinary circumstances, and 'exceptions', such as Bilbo, Boromir, Legolas, Glóin and Gimli having to have special conscious permission of the Ring's master to enter?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It's fairly clear to me Vilya was the primary protection of Rivendell. I wonder though, just how its influence (and Nenya's also) kept out unwelcome intruders.

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think Vilya had an influence (and was the reason the stars were clearest there) but I still think Geography was the primary protection since Elrond founded Rivendell long before he had the Ring of Power. Also Rivendell was designed as a refuge in the way the Lorien was not.

Well, the area's geography was what convinced Elrond to choose that valley as the location for his refuge, but that alone wouldn't have been a total defence. It was Vilya that seems to have provided the power ultimately to keep out enemies.
For example, Saruman almost certainly would have been to Rivendell, and could have told someone how to find it. If not the power of Vilya, what was to stop a spy from being on the ground in the area watching the Company leave?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Think in terms of Dark Ages Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Markets became more and more localized as the globalized economy of the Empire shrank. The great arteries of Roman roads fell into disuse. In England during most of the early Middle Ages, the populous never left their villages throughout their entire lives, and only a few made the dangerous trek through the primeval forests to reach the next village in a clearing further through the woods.

This, I think, is what Tolkien was getting at in the Shire, where folks that lived only 10 or 20 miles away were thought of as queer -- some even wore boots! "Strange as news from Bree" not only regards the information provided, but is a comment on the insular aspect of the society.

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

All true, however I never got the impression of Dark Ages when I was reading LotR. Gondor was in decline but still had great nobles, and had ships, didn't it?

I guess I pictured men like Prince Imrahil as the kind who would strike out and do things, like sail up the coast to the Havens (and down the coast to burn a few ships in dock in Umbar), rather than sit around indolently on Dol Amroth.

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Byzantine Empire, which was the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, was still a force to be reckoned with, but because of religious differences with the West, there was little concourse between Constantinople and Europe. But the Byzantines experienced a continous erosion of its power over the centuries as it became more and more decadent, finally falling to the Turks in 1453. But by then, Byzantium was a mere shadow of its former glory, with little but the city of Constantinople itself as part of its dwindled empire. This is much like Gondor, with its once vast landholdings dwindled away to Minas Tirith and the vassal holdings westward, like Dol Amroth. Rohan was never really a vassal state, but an ally given land Gondor could no longer control, Osgiliath was destroyed, and all of Ithilien and Near Harad were under enemy control.

A very good analogy which I had failed to consider. I should have thought of that instead of being fixed on the insularity of the Tokugawa Shogunate.