How did Saruman know who Gimli was ? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

PrinceOfTheHalflings · 09-29-2009, 02:33 PM

Saruman didn't spend all his time in Isengard. We know he visited Minas Tirith and he was part of the White Council ... so he must have attended the meetings. We also know that he participated in the attack on Dol Guldur, so he got around a bit.

I wonder if he'd ever visited Rivendell? Elrond would have had no reason to turn him away.

What I'm saying is - he probably knew of more people than we think! Remember, he was interested in the One Ring ... Bilbo found the Ring and Gloin was one of his companions... it's not inconceivable that Saruman knew something of this, given his interest.

Inziladun · 09-29-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrinceOfTheHalflings

What I'm saying is - he probably knew of more people than we think! Remember, he was interested in the One Ring ... Bilbo found the Ring and Gloin was one of his companions... it's not inconceivable that Saruman knew something of this, given his interest.

I do think it likely that Saruman knew Gandalf had a plan to eliminate Smaug, but I doubt he knew the details. If he'd been aware Gandalf was leading thirteen Dwarves and a Hobbit to the Lonely Mountain to destroy a dragon, his likely conclusion would have been that old Olórin had finally gone off the deep end.

Saruman probably didn't pay too much attention to Thorin and Company at that time, since he was occupied with getting Sauron out of Dol Guldur. I wouldn't think the names of the Dwarves involved would have been something he would have taken the trouble to learn.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 09-29-2009, 03:08 PM

I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there. Anyway, learning the Dwarves' names would have been of little importance to Saruman. I mean, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin would sound as funny to Saruman as they do to a reader of the Hobbit, except maybe for Thorin who was of some renown, but as good as dead (well, rather dead, actually). These names were of no use to Saruman as they didn't have anything to do with the Ring, and like I said above, at the time when Saruman could have learned about their connection to Bilbo, his immediate concern would be to get the Ring itself, which was somewhere in Eriador being chased around by the Black Riders.

AT MOST, though highly unlikely, Saruman could have - out of interest, or rather out of the pedantic obsession to know everything about the Rings - "googled"

the names of the thirteen Dwarves around the time of Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc, which could have coincided interestingly with Gimli and Glóin's journey from Erebor to Rivendell, and maybe then Gimli's appearance in the Fellowship might have been more of notice to him, as he would get the feeling that "something is going on here" as the recurring characters revolving around the Ring appear. But personally I somewhat doubt that.

PrinceOfTheHalflings · 09-29-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there.

That was the time I was thinking of. Of course Saruman wouldn't have been interested in the Erebor Quest back when the White Council were considering how to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur.

However, while Saruman had Gandalf in Orthanc, the Nazgul showed up (according to Unfinished Tales) looking for The Shire and a hobbit called Baggins. Saruman's spies in the shire would soon be able to tell him that there were two Baggins; Bilbo who had gone off into the wild on a quest with Gandalf and some dwarves and then disappeared mysteriously at his 111th birthday party and Frodo, who had inherited Bilbo's house and who had also mysteriously disappeared.

Once Saruman worked out that Gandalf seemed to be "behind" all this I'm sure that the composition of the Fellowship would have been of some interest to him. Especially as the Fellowship included Gandalf, Aragorn (Isildur's heir) and Boromir of Minas Tirith (whom Saruman probably met at some point in the past).

I don't think that Tolkien made a mistake here, I'm sure he intended that Saruman had done his homework.

CSteefel · 09-29-2009, 05:49 PM

I don't recall any mention of Gimli in the Hobbit, so how would Gloin's son have come to Saruman's attention through the business of Smaug. I also don't see what it would have to do with visits to Rivendell, since the visit of Gimli here also appeared to be a first for him.

There is a slight chance he knew of Gloin's name (although still unlikely that he would have focused on one of this large party of dwarves), but I don't see how this gets him the name of Gimli and that Gimli is Gloin's son...

Rumil · 09-29-2009, 05:54 PM

Agree that Saruman probably heard of Gimli via Wormtongue.

However I'd guess that he had some interest in the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain. After all the Battle of Five Armies was a really major event that altered the balance of power somewhat. I think Saruman would have been rather fascinated as to how the Grey Wanderer somehow managed to arrange the demise of Smaug the Magnificent.

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Gimli was probably one of the top few dozen Dwarves of Erebor (in terms of social status) and Saruman, being the political operator we know he was, might well have complied information on the top players amongst the major powers of the time.

Inziladun · 09-29-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumil

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Saruman had to have been well aware Sauron had recovered or accounted for all the Seven.
Gandalf had gone into Dol Guldur in T.A. 2850, and had then found Thráin II there, raving about 'the last of the Seven'. The White Council had met the very next year to discuss what to do about the Necromancer (revealed to be Sauron by Gandalf), and Gandalf would surely have told all about his experiences in Dol Guldur, including the fate of Thráin's ring.

Sarumian · 12-08-2009, 07:58 AM

I totally agree that every detail of the Erebor quest should be of a great interest for Saruman. Smaug's ellimination and the Battle of Five Armies were very important events; he cuould also have felt there was something dodgy in that, though the Ring was kept a secret. So Saruman must have been be aware of Gloin's name.

I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.

09-29-2009, 03:08 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there. Anyway, learning the Dwarves' names would have been of little importance to Saruman. I mean, Balin, Dwalin, Fili, Kili, Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Thorin would sound as funny to Saruman as they do to a reader of the Hobbit, except maybe for Thorin who was of some renown, but as good as dead (well, rather dead, actually). These names were of no use to Saruman as they didn't have anything to do with the Ring, and like I said above, at the time when Saruman could have learned about their connection to Bilbo, his immediate concern would be to get the Ring itself, which was somewhere in Eriador being chased around by the Black Riders. AT MOST, though highly unlikely, Saruman could have - out of interest, or rather out of the pedantic obsession to know everything about the Rings - "googled" the names of the thirteen Dwarves around the time of Gandalf's imprisonment in Orthanc, which could have coincided interestingly with Gimli and Glóin's journey from Erebor to Rivendell, and maybe then Gimli's appearance in the Fellowship might have been more of notice to him, as he would get the feeling that "something is going on here" as the recurring characters revolving around the Ring appear. But personally I somewhat doubt that. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

09-29-2009, 05:49 PM	#5
CSteefel Wight Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 204	I don't recall any mention of Gimli in the Hobbit, so how would Gloin's son have come to Saruman's attention through the business of Smaug. I also don't see what it would have to do with visits to Rivendell, since the visit of Gimli here also appeared to be a first for him. There is a slight chance he knew of Gloin's name (although still unlikely that he would have focused on one of this large party of dwarves), but I don't see how this gets him the name of Gimli and that Gimli is Gloin's son... __________________ `These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.'

09-29-2009, 05:54 PM	#6
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Agree that Saruman probably heard of Gimli via Wormtongue. However I'd guess that he had some interest in the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain. After all the Battle of Five Armies was a really major event that altered the balance of power somewhat. I think Saruman would have been rather fascinated as to how the Grey Wanderer somehow managed to arrange the demise of Smaug the Magnificent. More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing. Gimli was probably one of the top few dozen Dwarves of Erebor (in terms of social status) and Saruman, being the political operator we know he was, might well have complied information on the top players amongst the major powers of the time. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

09-29-2009, 02:33 PM	#1
PrinceOfTheHalflings Wight Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 120	Saruman didn't spend all his time in Isengard. We know he visited Minas Tirith and he was part of the White Council ... so he must have attended the meetings. We also know that he participated in the attack on Dol Guldur, so he got around a bit. I wonder if he'd ever visited Rivendell? Elrond would have had no reason to turn him away. What I'm saying is - he probably knew of more people than we think! Remember, he was interested in the One Ring ... Bilbo found the Ring and Gloin was one of his companions... it's not inconceivable that Saruman knew something of this, given his interest.

12-08-2009, 07:58 AM	#8
Sarumian Wight Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 129	I totally agree that every detail of the Erebor quest should be of a great interest for Saruman. Smaug's ellimination and the Battle of Five Armies were very important events; he cuould also have felt there was something dodgy in that, though the Ring was kept a secret. So Saruman must have been be aware of Gloin's name. I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.