How did Saruman know who Gimli was ?

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I second Inzil. Also, apart from that, Bilbo's connection to the Ring was unknown to Saruman basically until the very end, when he got straight to the source - i.e. Gandalf, whom he imprisoned in Orthanc. If he would be interested in learning how did the Ring end up in Bilbo's possession, it would have had to be solved then, and again, we are basically around the same time there.

That was the time I was thinking of. Of course Saruman wouldn't have been interested in the Erebor Quest back when the White Council were considering how to drive Sauron from Dol Guldur.

However, while Saruman had Gandalf in Orthanc, the Nazgul showed up (according to Unfinished Tales) looking for The Shire and a hobbit called Baggins. Saruman's spies in the shire would soon be able to tell him that there were two Baggins; Bilbo who had gone off into the wild on a quest with Gandalf and some dwarves and then disappeared mysteriously at his 111th birthday party and Frodo, who had inherited Bilbo's house and who had also mysteriously disappeared.

Once Saruman worked out that Gandalf seemed to be "behind" all this I'm sure that the composition of the Fellowship would have been of some interest to him. Especially as the Fellowship included Gandalf, Aragorn (Isildur's heir) and Boromir of Minas Tirith (whom Saruman probably met at some point in the past).

I don't think that Tolkien made a mistake here, I'm sure he intended that Saruman had done his homework.

[CSteefel]

I don't recall any mention of Gimli in the Hobbit, so how would Gloin's son have come to Saruman's attention through the business of Smaug. I also don't see what it would have to do with visits to Rivendell, since the visit of Gimli here also appeared to be a first for him.

There is a slight chance he knew of Gloin's name (although still unlikely that he would have focused on one of this large party of dwarves), but I don't see how this gets him the name of Gimli and that Gimli is Gloin's son...

[Rumil]

Agree that Saruman probably heard of Gimli via Wormtongue.

However I'd guess that he had some interest in the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain. After all the Battle of Five Armies was a really major event that altered the balance of power somewhat. I think Saruman would have been rather fascinated as to how the Grey Wanderer somehow managed to arrange the demise of Smaug the Magnificent.

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Gimli was probably one of the top few dozen Dwarves of Erebor (in terms of social status) and Saruman, being the political operator we know he was, might well have complied information on the top players amongst the major powers of the time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rumil

More importantly, putting 2 and 2 together, Balin's occupation of Moria might have made him sit up and take notice. Saruman was the expert on Rings of Power, I bet he had figured out that there was still one of the seven unaccounted for, though I'm not sure if Gandalf let on that it was taken in Dol Guldur? If not, then Saruman would have loved to get his hands on it and Moria wasn't too far for his spies to travel, or to do a bit of Palantir-ing.

Saruman had to have been well aware Sauron had recovered or accounted for all the Seven.
Gandalf had gone into Dol Guldur in T.A. 2850, and had then found Thráin II there, raving about 'the last of the Seven'. The White Council had met the very next year to discuss what to do about the Necromancer (revealed to be Sauron by Gandalf), and Gandalf would surely have told all about his experiences in Dol Guldur, including the fate of Thráin's ring.

[Sarumian]

I totally agree that every detail of the Erebor quest should be of a great interest for Saruman. Smaug's ellimination and the Battle of Five Armies were very important events; he cuould also have felt there was something dodgy in that, though the Ring was kept a secret. So Saruman must have been be aware of Gloin's name.

I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

I don't think he knew anything about Gimli before the Fellowship departed from Rivendail. However he could have learnt it either from his spies in Hollin (there could be not only animals, but Dunlendings), or from Wormtongue, or himself in Farngorn, as have already been said here, so there was no mistake.

I doubt Dunlendings, or any other two-legged spies, could have been close enough to the Company in Eregion to have overheard their speech.
For one thing, the lands surrounding Rivendell had been well searched prior to the departure of the Fellowship. Also, it seems likely anyone trying to follow them would have been marked by Legolas, Aragorn, or Gandalf at least, not to mention the Hobbits, who were sharp enough to see and hear Gollum later on when he was on their trail.

And by the way, welcome Sarumian!

[Mugwump]

Considering the age of the Istari, and how much they got around, I would have been astounded at any suggestion that Saruman did NOT know a notable dwarf like Gimli by sight. I'm certain he must've seen him before in his travels, and more than once.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

Considering the age of the Istari, and how much they got around, I would have been astounded at any suggestion that Saruman did NOT know a notable dwarf like Gimli by sight. I'm certain he must've seen him before in his travels, and more than once.

That seems highly unlikely to me. Saruman, based on my impression from the Istari bits of Unfinished Tales and the Tale of the Years, was pretty sedentary after the Steward of Gondor gave him the keys of Orthanc. Not completely, I don't imagine, but I really don't think he was much of a wanderer by the time of the last White Council, and Gimli was too young then to go on the Quest to Erebor, so I don't think we can call him "notable" quite yet.