Nature/Cause of the weariness of Eldar in the Third Age

[Nogrod]

Talking about the "weariness" itself... the weltschmertz or the angst...

Well, blaming Sauron for it looks to me a bit too simple an answer - and not honouring the elves their due. Like, "I'm getting done with your rule in the ME, now start feeling bad and show some common resignation"...

Looking at Tolkien's work one should probably look farther and on a larger scale.

What I have always thought being the reason for the "annui" has been just the fact that they have lived so long, being involved for so long, seen so much... seen so many a thing recurring, repeating itself.

Every child - or a childish person - wants to live forever but when one gets even a glimpse of what eternity might actually mean one grows up and sees the freedom and meaningfulness of living a limited mortal life. To me that has just been the realisation of the elves... they have grown up, they have realised that another millenia, and another, and another... will be just the same with some minor variations and the struggle between good and bad etc. will go on whatever they do...

And isn't that one of the recurring themes of our mythologies and popular cultures: how immortals envy those who can just live and die?

That might be just my perspective but I think one could actually argue for it, at least better than for Sauron and the fear of losing control...

[Inziladun]

I've always thought the 'fading' of the Elves in Middle-earth was connected to their inherent difference from the land itself. They were immortal creatures living in a mortal world, and eventually had to make way for the mortal Men who were its masters.
It seems to be a mirror effect of that which the Blessed Realm would have on mortals, as explained to the Númenóreans by the Eldar:

For it is not the land of Manwë that makes its people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too stong and steadfast.

Silm Akallabêth

[JeffF.]

Tolkien wrote in the Silmarillion about the host of the Last Alliance of Men and Elves when it gathered at Imladris (Rivendell) that, "none greater has been mustered (in Middle Earth) since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim." Given that the kingdom of Arnor was only around a hundred years old the Eldar must have numbered a fairly large part of that host (which was smaller than the army that actually fought at Dagorlad since the Silvan Elves and the Army of Gondor joined it after the gathering at Imladris). I grant that most of these troops at Imladris must have been men, Tolkien writes that he Eldar dwelt most in the lands beyond the Ered Luin, in the Havens and in Imladris implying that most of the lands of Arnor must have been occupied by men under Gil-Galad's rule (prior to him ceding these lands and people to Elendil).

In reading the Peoples of Middle Earth book I agree that the Eldar were diminishing but it seems that Tolkien meant mostly in stature (he calls the Noldor Gnomes in Peoples of Middle Earth) making statements implying they were shorter than their ancestors.

The affect of the "weariness" seems to be limited to the Eldar, the Silvan Elves seem to be much as they have always been, preferring to keep to themselves and only intervening during the in a limited fashion in the war on Sauron, their hosts in the Last Alliance being the last time they march on the Dark Lord. The Avari also seem immune to the "weariness" though of course they are almost a non-entity as far as the history of Middle Earth goes.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

The affect of the "weariness" seems to be limited to the Eldar, the Silvan Elves seem to be much as they have always been, preferring to keep to themselves and only intervening during the in a limited fashion in the war on Sauron, their hosts in the Last Alliance being the last time they march on the Dark Lord. The Avari also seem immune to the "weariness" though of course they are almost a non-entity as far as the history of Middle Earth goes.

Somehow, I don't think the Eldar were the only Elves subject to the weariness. Perhaps the Silvan Elves were simply in something of a general state of denial.

I don't have the books handy, but didn't Legolas make a comment to Gimli along the lines of 'The kingdoms of men will outlast us'? Maybe he realised that one day he too would be subject to the fading.

[JeffF.]

According to Unfinished Tales in the chapter about Galadriesl and Celeborn, Thranduil, Legolas' father, was a Sindarin Elf who ruled over Silvan elves. Both the Sindar and the Noldor seem to have been affected by weariness.

All elves seem to have been affected by the sea longing that Legolas experienced. Perhaps this is the explanation of the abandonment of Lorien though it is nowhere states specifically where the Silvan elves went.

[Boromir88]

Middle-earth is perfect for Men, because Men are mortal. Death comes to them all, and death also quite literally is the nature of Middle-earth.

With Elves, death is not certain, and Tolkien notes their primary weakness is an inability to change. Basically they don't like it. Galadriel tried to turn Lorien into her own personal Undying Lands by stopping Time, stopping her own personal realm from decaying. Try as she might, she could only slow Time, thus only slow decay. So, I think Middle-earth was just an unfit place for Elves, it's nature is in line with the nature of Men, as the Undying Lands is in line with the nature of Elves.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I think Middle-earth was just an unfit place for Elves, it's nature is in line with the nature of Men, as the Undying Lands is in line with the nature of Elves.

That's the key, I think. Why else would it be only Elves dwelling in Middle-earth who were affected? Those in the West didn't fade because the land of their dwelling was immortal, just as they were.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

That's the key, I think. Why else would it be only Elves dwelling in Middle-earth who were affected? Those in the West didn't fade because the land of their dwelling was immortal, just as they were.

Yes. In fact, I think this could in fact be another question that leads back to the Gift of Men. The elves are tied to the Music, stuck to Arda, so the less it changes, the easier it is for them. Men, on the other hand, can act outside the Music, and this is why they are forever changing things while the elves are content to let things sort themselves out on their own, to let "doom" (as Tolkien always likes to call it), or "fate" run its course. Because Men are not tied to the music, and are free to die and leave, then they don't care about the long-term effects of their actions (much like humans today), while the elves know that they will experience the long-term effects as well as the short-term, which is why when things stay the same it is easier for them.

As well as this, their minds are suited to immortality and no change, so they need a land of immortality and no change in which to live.



Hmm... I don't think I said exactly what I was trying to, but that'll do for now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What I have always thought being the reason for the "annui" has been just the fact that they have lived so long, being involved for so long, seen so much... seen so many a thing recurring, repeating itself.

Every child - or a childish person - wants to live forever but when one gets even a glimpse of what eternity might actually mean one grows up and sees the freedom and meaningfulness of living a limited mortal life. To me that has just been the realisation of the elves... they have grown up, they have realised that another millenia, and another, and another... will be just the same with some minor variations and the struggle between good and bad etc. will go on whatever they do...

And isn't that one of the recurring themes of our mythologies and popular cultures: how immortals envy those who can just live and die?

It indeed is (and by the way, if you ever get the chance to see/read "The Macropulos Case" by Karel Čapek, I recommend that, as it deals with the topic as well), though with all due respect, I think with the Elves it is not really the case. I would rather agree with Boro, as it really is that the Elves aren't really fit for M-E because it is changing all the time. And that's why I disagree with what Nog said: the problem of the Elves is not that they would have seen the sunrise or the spring for million times already, if it was so and they were fed up with immortality, then it would make no sense for them to leave for the Undying Lands, where actually things do not change at all! No, I think that's actually what humans would think (and I have seen even fellow 'Downers expressing similar opinions on the Undying Lands, that it must be "totally boring" there) - but that's just not the way the Elven mentality works. They do not really want things to change and they are fine with it. I think the Undying Lands are something more akin to for example Plato's world of ideas. I think the Elvish destiny is something more into the Neo-Platonic or Gnostic sense, getting away from the ever-changing marred Middle-Earth to a world where everything lasts. (Although, even this is not exactly true, as even Valinor is part of Arda Marred, and there is something else as a vision for the Elves, which is outside the time with the Second Music at the end of the days and the Men will join that also - so there is something "beyond" just this idea of unchanging, but still "earthly" world - I must note here that I appreciate this aspect in Tolkien's works, as Valinor in a way corresponds to the "simple" idea of Heaven which we find in basically all world mythologies, but with the Fate of Men is not that, Tolkien - to my surprise and delight - keeps the Christian biblical perspective which does not condescent to objectification - and in some way, it contributes to, or makes it easier for me to take Middle-Earth as "real".)

[Nogrod]

Actually I think my thought will combine with Boro's (and yours Legate) quite neatly. And thank's Boro for adding something I had totally ignored as I thought of the question just from this human perspective we people tend to have...

So this ME is a place of transient things, ever-recurring conditions and choices, forwards and backwards... always incomplete. From an immortal perspective it should be frustrating indeed.

That's why those elves dwelling in the West had no such problems, living in the platonic world of perfectness as they were. And because of that gap between men and the elves we men can never really understand the bliss of an ever-unchanging world the elves might long for - and therefore the only meaning given to us humans is, like Gandalf says "deciding what to do with the time that is given to us".

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's why those elves dwelling in the West had no such problems, living in the platonic world of perfectness as they were. And because of that gap between men and the elves we men can never really understand the bliss of an ever-unchanging world the elves might long for - and therefore the only meaning given to us humans is, like Gandalf says "deciding what to do with the time that is given to us".

That's exactly it. And that's why the Elves were so overwhelmed with the sight of Men with their ridiculously short lives doing feats that equaled or sometimes surpassed those of the immortal Elves - just because of this. They are given such a short live in the Circles of the World, but that can serve as a motivation, and - okay, here I would disagree with Eönwë - it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future. If they do care, then they face only one problem - that of their short life, which means little experience, and being prone to do all sorts of stupid things based on miscalculations (like Isildur not destroying the Ring, being so full of himself).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future.

I wouldn't exactly like to go theological on this one but I do agree with this a hundred times!

When it's the one life you have and limited one as such, then every word you say and every act you do counts. The less days you have, the more precious (), the more meaningful they are.

Sadly many people seem to think they live forever and do not care...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

it can lead them to actually care more of their actions, and of their effect in the future.

So you mean sort of to leave their mark upon the world before they leave? That is a good point.What I meant is that they are more likely to make rash decisions, so even if they are doing things for the right reasons, they sometimes get things wrong. And more importantly, they are more irresponsible because they know they only have a short time to do things, so they make the most of it. If they get it right, then they have performed a deed of great valour, but if they get wrong they don't live to see its effects. Now, even if they try to, it is harder for Men to see the long-term effects of their actions than Elves because they have not lived as long and have not had the experience. The Elves would be much slower and more careful, because they literally had eternity, while the Men cared about the present, because that is when they lived.

Also, great people are measured in this case by single great deeds. For example, take Cirdan. He has probably killed more orcs and given more good counsel and helped more people than any human (and possibly even elf as well), but he is not remembered as one of the great because he does it slowly over a period of time.

It is for this reason also that the elven kingdoms change much less rapidly than human kingdoms. Land for Men in Middle-Earth is lost and gained much faster than for elves, because elves are more reserved in the Third Age. In the First Age, all of Middle-Earth was new to them, and they were much more rash, but by the Third Age, they were settled, whereas Men, with their population so rapidly changing, are always on the move in comparison, and mostly either advance or gain land in leaps, or lose a lot in a short period of time. In our real history this is true as well- many great empires have expanded very quickly.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So you mean sort of to leave their mark upon the world before they leave? That is a good point.What I meant is that they are more likely to make rash decisions, so even if they are doing things for the right reasons, they sometimes get things wrong. And more importantly, they are more irresponsible because they know they only have a short time to do things, so they make the most of it. If they get it right, then they have performed a deed of great valour, but if they get wrong they don't live to see its effects. Now, even if they try to, it is harder for Men to see the long-term effects of their actions than Elves because they have not lived as long and have not had the experience. The Elves would be much slower and more careful, because they literally had eternity, while the Men cared about the present, because that is when they lived.

Exactly think of the "rash" and "ever anxious" Boromir, who had noble intentions (saving his people, bu also wanting to make his own "glory") but probably would not have lived to see the full consequences had he been able to sieze the Ring and claimed it for Gondor.

As opposed to the much more thoughtful (and Elven) Faramir, who loved Gondor just as much as Boromir, but knew and cared, what the Ring would do had he claimed it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Exactly think of the "rash" and "ever anxious" Boromir, who had noble intentions (saving his people, bu also wanting to make his own "glory") but probably would not have lived to see the full consequences had he been able to sieze the Ring and claimed it for Gondor.

Well, that's basically what I meant by my last sentence in the former post:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If they do care, then they face only one problem - that of their short life, which means little experience, and being prone to do all sorts of stupid things based on miscalculations (like Isildur not destroying the Ring, being so full of himself).

I think, of course there are those who don't care about the future at all, but I think they are not too many. Generally I think it's either too much of pride or something, which is on the way ("Men of Gondor would never fall to the Ring") even in contrary to all the facts (think of all the revolutions in the name of good are something that shows the same pattern in our history), or just closing one's ears to everything and pretending that future does not exist, or that the concerns that are there do not exist (like maybe it was even for Isildur, "but the Dark Lord is dead - no problem with taking his Ring, and Elrond and Círdan, hush, hush, I never heard what they were telling me").

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I wouldn't exactly like to go theological on this one but I do agree with this a hundred times!

When it's the one life you have and limited one as such, then every word you say and every act you do counts. The less days you have, the more precious (), the more meaningful they are.

Sadly many people seem to think they live forever and do not care...

Is it not very naive to think that you can create a rule that will aply to all mankind?

If some men are wise, some rash, some stupid and some made of jam then surely they will not all reason alike. So some might reason that because of their limited time in ME, they will only have one shot at making it right and thus care more, but others might think otherwise.

Anyways the point about ME being a rapidly changing place is a very good one and I must admit I found it rather enlightening to read through this thread.

It probably cannot explain everything. . . as it was stated earlier there seem to be a difference between the different groups of elves and how weary they are of life in ME. It does seem to me that high elves have a longing for days of yore, when life was young and sweet in Valinor. Others seem to have a sence of an era comming to an end and a longing for the sea (hell, I have a longing for the sea), but it does not seem as hughe a thing as it does to high elves.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

If some men are wise, some rash, some stupid and some made of jam then surely they will not all reason alike. So some might reason that because of their limited time in ME, they will only have one shot at making it right and thus care more, but others might think otherwise.

Exactly... and thus some people find meaning and responsibility from their short life-spans and need no other incentives; others search for it in God or whatever and the third kind feel their lives are meaningless and thus try to fill it with whatever they think could fill the void (whatever the commercial culture tells them to fill their next second with before they need to buy something else to fill their lives)...

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That's why those elves dwelling in the West had no such problems, living in the platonic world of perfectness as they were. And because of that gap between men and the elves we men can never really understand the bliss of an ever-unchanging world the elves might long for - and therefore the only meaning given to us humans is, like Gandalf says "deciding what to do with the time that is given to us".

Sort of kind of. I mean, even the Valar are supposed to eventually envy us mortals and our ability to say, "So long, suckers!"