Balrog Breaking and Entering

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

like a hobbit Caefully and quietly

Somehow I don't get the impression that Balrogs are all that good at stealth...

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Actually maybe through another passae like the ones the orcs made home in later I mean and this is PURELY Conjecture they(the tunnels) did all kind of intersect somehow. Or he could havee gone through the west gate which may have been much less populated than the other side

I don't think so, Morsul– it doesn't fit with what we hear of the Balrog hiding "at the foundations of the earth", and the fact that it was only excessively deep mining that disturbed it. It wasn't actually in Moria until then, but rather beneath it, with no way of getting through.

I find it more likely that it entered through the tunnels beneath Moria– you know, the ones "gnawed by nameless things" (see The White Rider).
According to Gandalf, the Balrog was familiar with these. We're not told if there was a way directly into these deep tunnels from outside at the time of the War of the Ring, but I don't see why there couldn't have been at some point.

From an outside-the-story viewpoint, I should say that's why Tolkien bothers to mention this ancient, unknown network of tunnels beneath the mountains– it explains how the Balrog got there in the first place.

This is a pretty interesting image, however–

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

also here's the idea being a maiar he could look like a dwarf and only in his rage did he reveal himself.

[Mister Underhill]

Interesting catch on the detail there, Inzila, as usual. Perhaps the Balrog flew down a ventilation shaft.

In any case, as Nerwen has mentioned, it seems doubtful that the Balrog entered Moria proper and then made his way to the deep places. Instead he must have wormed his way there from the surface by some other means, only to be "unearthed" by the Dwarves later on. You've inspired me to page through some of the accounts of the coming of the Host of the West to see if I can glean more details...

[wayseer]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Somehow I don't get the impression that Balrogs are all that good at stealth...

We are told that Balrogs were 'cloaked in darkness' so maybe they did posses some stealth aspects.

In LoTR 'the Balrog' is the only surviving member which was also known as Durin's Bane having killed two kings of the Durin's Folk in Khazad-dum. This was the one Gandalf killed in TA 3019 after a lengthy battle. I suspect 'the Balrog' arrived in Moria before the TA through its ability to move unseen.

Interesting points raised here.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I find it more likely that it entered through the tunnels beneath Moria– you know, the ones "gnawed by nameless things" (see The White Rider).
According to Gandalf, the Balrog was familiar with these. We're not told if there was a way directly into these deep tunnels from outside at the time of the War of the Ring, but I don't see why there couldn't have been at some point.

My only problem with this is you'd think that the entire area, not just Moria proper, would have been crawling with Dwarves. There should have been constant travel to and from the West-gate through the area later to be known as Eregion.
I would say the Balrog was lucky to have escaped their vigilance, but it was probably the Dwarves who were luckier.
This actually makes me wonder why the Balrog picked a location where it was likely to be discovered sooner or later. The Misty Mountains were a pretty large range, and you'd think there would have been hundreds of caves it could have explored. Maybe it had once known the Watcher and wanted to catch up on old times.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My only problem with this is you'd think that the entire area, not just Moria proper, would have been crawling with Dwarves. There should have been constant travel to and from the West-gate through the area later to be known as Eregion.
I would say the Balrog was lucky to have escaped their vigilance, but it was probably the Dwarves who were luckier.

I think Nerwen is spot on in her observation.
Anyways the entrances to tunnels under Moria probably wasn't situated near the gates or at the main travel rutes, the misty mountains is a massive mountain range and it should be no problem to find a desolate place.

[Pitchwife]

From the Silmarillion, it would seem that Angband was mostly subterranean, and probably dug pretty deep - maybe even including some biotopes for nameless, gnawing things of its own (Morgoth's pampered pets?). So who's to say Durin's Bane didn't travel all the way underground? It could have wandered through the entrails of the Earth for millennia until it finally found a cosy nook to settle down, entirely unaware that there were Dwarves living on top of it. I guess it was pretty annoyed when they broke into its attics.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

From the Silmarillion, it would seem that Angband was mostly subterranean, and probably dug pretty deep - maybe even including some biotopes for nameless, gnawing things of its own (Morgoth's pampered pets?). So who's to say Durin's Bane didn't travel all the way underground? It could have wandered through the entrails of the Earth for millennia until it finally found a cosy nook to settle down, entirely unaware that there were Dwarves living on top of it. I guess it was pretty annoyed when they broke into its attics.

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Well, anyway, I consider the subterranean infiltration rather plausible (with all canonicity). Was it Gandalf who said that the lodes of mithril lead "north towards Caradhras - and down to darkness"? Certainly "down to darkness" raises the image of unknown underground corridors, which may lead who knows where.

But I would combine it with the stealth aspect, too. I mean, why would the Balrog not be good at stealth? I always thought they could be. Covered with shadow, indeed, like wayseer said.

(Topic-unrelated note: Okay, I must say I freaked out when I saw wayseer posting on this thread - as for me, it was something like a name of legend, I saw wayseer posting before I joined, so for me it's something like seeing SpM, only with the difference that I have been talking to SpM before.)

[Mnemosyne]

Don't forget also about all the crazy cataclysmic stuff that was going on during the War of Wrath. Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there? (Sorry, but I have a bit of a hard time thinking that the Balrog spent that much time just waiting very, very patiently for Dwarf fricasee...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Indeed, and once again, if we think of any underground complex of Morgoth's, it would go down with Beleriand, too, and probably be drowned. A Balrog doused after long swimming would be also less detectable, eh? Well, jokes aside, opening new passages by cracking the land makes a whole new possibility indeed. Also, speaking of secret passages and water, this reminds me of the Watcher in the water, who managed to get to the West Gate of Moria from who knows where, it is true that there was probably not much anybody to guard it at that time, but still, there must have been some good access way for it in the first place, so as for unexplored cracks in the mass of Caradhras or other mountains, I don't think it would be such a problem to get in (or the good old solution, drilling).

[alatar]

The gnawing creatures, during the breaking of Thangorodrim, began squirming in all directions - underground, of course - just like an bugs when you strike the nest. The balrog, being the only one that survived, obviously was a bit brighter than the others, and so followed the gnawing ones out away from the battle.

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by alatar

Eventually, the balrog could worm no more, and so lay down for a sleep in some cavern under Caradhras...that is until some hammer-banging Dwarves showed up...

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Ah, Your Highness be basically quoting the beautiful, yet terribly uncanonical works by the Iron Crown Enterprises, incorporating a vast complex of Morgoth's tunnels from the First Age, reaching from the Remains of Thangorodrim as far as the halls under Moria, and reaching further into the "Drowning-Deeps" underneath the Blue Mountains, the "Rusted Deeps" under the Iron Hills, and at last, the dark Under-Courts of Barad-Dur. So, great minds think alike?

Your Legginess doth credit me with more erudition than I can justly claim to possess, my familiarity with the scrolls of lore you mention amounting to little more than nil.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Could the shaking up of the earth that must have happened with the drowning of Beleriand been enough to 1). catch the Dwarves off guard, 2). open up new and secret ways under the earth, or 3). possibly even trap the Balrog there?

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?
What about this: the Balrog, seeking to hide in the deepest recesses of Angband, was buried under what would after the cataclysm become the sea floor. It then wormed/burrowed/melted(?how much heat can an undoused Balrog generate?) its way through the continental crust till it found a nice cavern deep under Moria and decided to spend the next few millennia there.
But seriously, the real solution is, of course, much simpler:
*It flew to the top of Zirakzigil and descended the Endless Stair, etc., taking the same way as when it was pursued by Gandalf, only in the opposite direction. It's logical, isn't it? How else would it know the way so well?

(OT: Now that Legate mentions it, wayseer, are you actually, as your avatar seems to indicate, The Only Real Estel reincarnated? If so, I'm pleased and honored to meet you! (Well, pleased anyway!))

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yeah, I can imagine just how it happened. The Balrog, finally having found a nice little hide-out to settle down in away from all bossy Dark Lords and vindictive Gods, is awoken early one Sunday morning. A bit hung-over from the day before there's only one thought in his head:

"What's that infernal noise?"

By the way, all the escape-from-Angband business and the fact that he was the sole survivor of his kind in the Third Age (or at least known one) makes me think whether this particular person, the one we know as Durin's Bane, wasn't a bit of a coward I mean, compared to the average of his kind...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Hmmm - the distance from Moria Gate to the Isle of Himling (closest remnant of Beleriand) was some 900-1000 miles as the Balrog flies*. I'm not quite sure what an earthquake that could be felt (and I mean felt, not registered by modern equipment) across such a distance would measure on the Richter scale - but who knows what the Lords of the West in their Wrath were capable of?

Oh, I am sure the earthquake must have been quite a feat. I mean, we are talking about the whole Beleriand drowning here, Ered Luin being torn apart and all that stuff. Unless I am mistaken, the Bay of Belfalas was created at that time, and it was also implied, I believe, that there used to be the great inland sea of Helcar (beyond which Men awoke) where later the lakes of Rhun and Núrnen existed. Go figure.

(OT: I was not talking about the avvie, although of course I know it, but I was thinking of wayseer as wayseer, it's just weird as I recall his name vividly from before.)