Tol-in-Gaurhoth LXVIII: A Full Moon Over Innsmouth

[Morsul the Dark]

While I have already casted my vote Prematurely it seems(I claim Rookie) Given more thought

Pitchwife and Kitana "discovered" the note

Nerwen was the one by the blood and bones

Nienna again maybe she is an innocent ashamed by her other half?

Legate seems learned in Werewolf lore an anatomy..

Hmm... I should have thought about this more before voting...

by the by I noticed people posting their votes in Red how do I do that?

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Hmm... I should have thought about this more before voting...

by the by I noticed people posting their votes in Red how do I do that?

You voted already??? Where?? *confused*

We have to vote in red?? didn't know that...

you do it like this [ highlight ] vote [ /highlight ] (without spaces)

[Morsul the Dark]

EDIT I didn't Vote yet??? WOOO

Just proving my inexperience and lack of consideration but I can't retract a vote sooo.... C'est La Vie

also that's why voting in Red Makes sense... Darn I might have actually gotten away with voting again but that'd be unfair.

I still think Nerwen Pitchwife and Kitanna would be runners up in suspicion based on the story not much to go on...

Well then I'll vote this post thinking about it after what's been said
Sorry Nienna I feel like a jerk for using a technicality to change my vote so I have to go with my original impulse I'll be more careful in the future

++Nienna

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well then I'll vote this post thinking about it after what's been said
Sorry Nienna I feel like a jerk for using a technicality to change my vote so I have to go with my original impulse I'll be more careful in the future

++Nienna

I think I've explained Why I kept Nienna's vote sure the reasoning may have been flawed But as we can't retract votes we're stuck with this one I'll be more careful in the future that said Nienna's reaction may have been justified but forgive and forget, or is a werewolf's forgiveness hard to come by?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

So...Hakon has played many games, and therefore should have some better logic by now I would think. His vote and comments are weird and I don't like them so

++ Hakon

Okay, but THAT screams "wolf" to me. Because really. I completely disagree with what Hakon did (and I said so), but then, if you try to think of it deeper... Would Hakon do such a thing as a Wolf? Or, is it any indication of his wolfishness? Also, like I said, I can well imagine even innocent Hakon being so "rude" and vote in the way he did. Also, what is the Wolves' purpose? It's to find a person whom the others suspect and vote for him/her as well, in order to hide in the crowd, or to find somebody to whom they can draw the suspicion of other villagers. But would what Hakon just did be a good opportunity to find a target for the village? I doubt it. I doubt Hakon-Wolf could have hoped for getting Inzil lynched by saying what he did. These were no reasons which would create a bandwagon.
But voting for Hakon at the moment when it seems that there is a good point to catch on, now that is what wilwa does. And that actually looks like a good start of a bandwagon, indeed! That's why it screams wolfy to me. And anyway, wilwa, if you are accusing Hakon of having bad logic and that he should be better, look at your own vote for him. "I don't like him" is about as bad logic as Hakon uses. No, really. You are either being hypocritical, or being a Wolf.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Now, Nienna does react unusually strong to Morsul's vote. But, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, at the time of Morsul's vote Nienna hadn't spoken yet had she? I myself was annoyed and angry Morsul listed me as a suspect in one of his earliest posts based on the narration. I see where Nienna's response would be seen as a red flag, but I'm having a hard time finding it overly suspicious.

Not really, but one mistaken vote of one newbie? It can be seen where Morsul is coming from. My point is, had I been in Ni's place, I would have ignored his vote. It has no real substance behind it, so why should it worry me? Especially if Morsul realised that he cannot base his suspicions on things like that. Everything's all right, then. I got one vote, but happens (if he voted for me at the moment when I already have four votes and am at the risk of being lynched, then it would be something different). Of course it's possibly a shock at first, but then when you see the reasons and the background for it, it really isn't an issue. And I am saying this because I got the feeling about Ni that her reaction would not have been so different from mine when it comes to that.

Originally Posted by Kit

3) I spoke considerably on Wilwa's suggestion for everyone to talk more, regardless of what they said in my last post and I'd like to finish up a thought on that.
As I said before she makes a good point about these posts helping on Day 2, but this suggestion worries me as well. If we have half the village just repeating the same things or just doing random in character gibberish then we have nothing Day 2 and it essentially becomes almost like a second Day 1. I think everyone should post, but if people flood the thread with nonsense it becomes just as easy for wolves to hide behind that as it is to hide behind a mask of quietness. Wilwa should know this and that makes me wonder why she put the idea of "make lots of noise" out there in the first place.

That's a fair point too, though personally I am not worried by that in particular with wilwa. I think this could be perfectly innocent comment. (But I have different reasons for suspecting wilwa - cf. above.)

[Pitchwife]

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?
About that Hakon-Inzil thing, I don't know - Zil has a knack for making himself suspicious and getting lynched early, so he's not an unlikely target for a wolf-started bandwagon, though I'd expect that to be done with a little more reasoning. On the other hand, as far as I can see Hakon is consistently being himself - hunches, weird reasons and all; not that he couldn't still be a wolf (as could Zil) - I haven't yet seen what a Hakon-wolf looks like and might not recognize it before it bites me in the nose.
Not that all this leaves me (or you) any the wiser...

[Nogrod]

Okay.

Apart from Nienna I seem to have only one decent pair of candidates which is Lari and wilwa - and I need to run for the choir rehearsals in a moment.

Now I see many people have raised concerns with wilwa but just suggesting that people should talk a lot even if they don't have a lot to say is not the greatest possible argument against her. Actually it doesn't make her look guilty in any way. But the sudden defence of her by Lari (with actual points why - which she gave practically of none else) when some suspicion started to emerge raises my eyebrows to be sure.

I just saw Nienna's post and am not sure what to say of it. Her explanation feels genuinish but it reminds me of yet one thing that looked so overdefensive about her, eg. quoting herself in the admin. thread before the roles were dealt. If that is not over-defensive then what is?

And I am a bit confused about her vote as well...

Bah. Needs to vote now.

++ Nienna


EDIT: X'd with Kit

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

Yep, I have mentioned this reason as well (as the second paraghraph of my comment on her).

Originally Posted by Nienna

The first time I responded I believed he had voted for me because of the role I chose. I wanted to clarify that I chose the character before roles were assigned. I also wanted to let him know that those are not good reasons to vote for someone. It may have seemed a little defensive because there were a few games where people have lynched me on Day One for bad reasons and I didn't'/don't want that to happen again.

Hope that clears that up.

Okay, fine with me. I guess I can see your point now, or accept it.

By the way, speaking of that...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I sort of agree with Legate about the Morsul-Nienna controversy - Morsul's vote was practically screaming 'clueless newbie', so Nienna might as well have shrugged it off; on the other hand, she hasn't accused him in turn or made a big fuss over the matter, she merely expressed her annoyance and pointed out that his reasons are bad (which they are). Overreaction yes, but wolfishness?

Okay, this is actually once again one moment where I am becoming unsure of Pitchwife. First, it looks slightly like... well, in his whole last post, he is basically stemming from things I said (or also Nogrod for that matter, etc.). It could be sort of like a Pitchwolf picking up some people of the more vocal sort and trying to make a good eye for himself by agreeing with them. Also, using their arguments as basis while expressing slight doubt would be a good cover for a Wolf in order not to need to make up any own reasons.
Secondly also, I don't think I have ever mentioned Nienna's reaction as being wolfish. In fact, indeed I have only expressed my wonder. (And now I take her explanation as acceptable.) So I wonder where this "wolfishness" came from, if it's supposed to have come from me, it could hint on some thought processes which perhaps read what they want to read (a Wolf wishing to read a suspicion being raised, so that he can continue on it)?
It may not be so, of course, and it can be interpretated in many ways. But it just again raises my awareness of Pitchwife.

EDIT: x-ed since Kitanna

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, but THAT screams "wolf" to me.

I'm inclined to agree with you about her vote, but for different reasons. It seems stranger to me that she would accuse him of not having sound logic having played so many games in the past, considering I feel the same way about her own suggestion of making noise.

My point is, had I been in Ni's place, I would have ignored his vote.

I feel this is just a matter of how different players react to different scenarios. I probably would have reacted the same as Nienna, which is why I'm willing to take her reaction as a panicked innocent rather than a panicked wolf. I'd rather see what how Nienna reacts when she receives a vote that is more than just a newbie's confusion. If the reaction is the same, then perhaps there's some merit to what Legate and Nogrod have said. For now I prefer to wait and see when it comes to Nienna.

Originally Posted by Roa

I don't like Brinniel's post at all. By the time she posted there was a lot to comment on, but instead of doing anything useful, she posted a lot of bantering fluff. If she contributes not further I will likely vote for her.

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Edit: x-posted with Pitchwife

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I wonder if this is just Brinn's playing style though? I can't recall Brinn's first few posts, in any game, ever being more than "fluff".

Hence the disclaimer "If she contributes no further." After last game (a bit of meta-gaming but can't be helped) I am far more cautious of those that seem to be hiding in the shadows with no one able to get a real feel for them.

[The Saucepan Man]

My masterpiece is complete! I am back!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Both of these comments seem a bit of an overreaction to Pitchwife's first words. Granted, I've no idea if he can be trusted, but I see nothing there of particular note.

So first Pitchwife defends you and now you seem to be defending him? Is there some kind of a conection between the two of you? Probably too obvious, but I am bearing it in mind. I disagree with others that Pitchwife has been overly agreeable. Au contraire, I found him unduly hostile in his first post, singling out for comment my words on him and Inzil from the flim-flammery that I posted. Maybe it was to provoke discussion, so I shall reserve judgment for now.

Originally Posted by Craydon1

I'll give an example and answer it: What, based on the role you have (publicly) in the town, would you have been doing last night that would make it impossible for you to be a werewolf?

Hmm, unlike others, I am not sure what answering this question is going to tell anyone. For, what it’s worth, I was in my attic studio painting yet another masterpiece, a depiction of the windowless obsidian towers of Yuggoth. Of course, like everyone else, I can produce no witness to confirm my alibi, so where does that get us?

Originally Posted by Loslote

A wolf would have a different mentality approaching the question than an ordo. An ordo would usually imagine what their role would do (and probably have a bit of fun with it) whereas a wolf would try to distract the reader with, well, distracting things.

You see, I just don’t get this. A Wolf and an innocent will both approach the question in exactly the same way. Both will be making up something based upon their stated role. I actually preferred Craydon’s other suggestion – that we say who we would kill if we were Wolves – or I would, but for the fact that it may give the Wolves ideas. Still, I suppose it has got people talking, which is no bad thing in itself.

Morsul’s vote was based on invalid criteria, that much is clear. I’m putting that down to his newbie status, for now at least. But equally, I do not begrudge Nienna a little anger at receiving toDay’s first vote based on invalid criteria. I see nothing unusual in it and, indeed, I am more alarmed about those who have sought to make more of it than it merits (yes, I’m looking at you Legate and Nogrod).

I didn’t like Craydon’s vote either, being as it was totally unsupported by any reasoning. But as he’s a newbie, in these parts at least, I shall give him a break too for toDay.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Also on a side note, I think SPM is a wolf. There is no way he is an ordinary innocent. I mean he is back now after being gone for years, it makes perfect sense to give him some kind of non ordinary innocent role so he can show off his apparently awesome skills at werewolf.

Hehe. My reputation is for others to judge, but ‘awesome’ is not exactly a word I would ever use to describe myself, either in relation to my Werewolf prowess or otherwise. Like others, I do not consider Hakon’s reasons for suspecting me and for voting for Inzil to be valid. I am not sure that this alone points to him being a Wolf, though. In fact, I think that a Wolf is far more likely to come up with some kind of an in-game reason to justify its vote.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Nerwen for example is very active bu mostly commenting on everyone else's thoughts not providing too much in way of theories. maybe because she doesn't want to give away her fellow werewolves?

Hmm, now that’s much better reasoning, Morsul. And a good point to boot.

However, there is one person who is worrying me more than any other at the moment. Loslote posted a few times, but with little to say, early in the Day. Then (at #58), she sets out her thoughts on everyone in the village. Only it doesn’t really say very much at all. Indeed, if I am honest, it is a masterpiece of non-committal. For each villager, she either says they might be a Wolf or they might not, or she has nothing to say about them. She even tries to excuse her suspicion of her lynch candidate du jour, Pitchwife:

Originally Posted by Loslote

Pitchie - same as Inzil, only his posts worry me more. He seemed to be jokingly trying to get on everyone's good side...but it might just be Day 1 behavior.

So, just like practically everyone else on your list, he might be a Wolf but he might not be, but you’re going to vote for him anyway. Why him in particular? The vote ends up being very unreasoned. Overall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.

Originally Posted by Lariren Shadow

This strikes me. I know in context it could be "play our parts as good villagers and find the wolves" but at the same time I took it as a sort of signal. Like the Agent to his wolves.

I thought that my meaning was fairly obvious. I find it a strange basis upon which to suspect someone, and so I remain wary of you.

I am currently wary of Pitchwife, Inzil, Larien and Nerwen, for the reasons stated above. But my main suspect by far is Loslote, on account of her unnervingly Wolfish behaviour. And, since I am not sure whether I will be have a chance to get back before the Day is out:

++Loslote

[Roa_Aoife]

Alright, I'm back.

So, having read through the thread, here are my observations (and no, it's not a list- I hate lists):

I think Morsul has got the idea now. However, Nienna's reaction- overly offended or rather justified? Initially, I think it was understandable. After all, I don't care if people vote for me, so long as they have a good reason for doing so. Bad reasons are upsetting. Her further reactions are a bit defensive. She keeps on Morsul, as if he could change his vote.

I think SPM is being too harsh on Loslote, and has a double standard. Most people are saying a whole lot of nothing today, so why should someone in his second game be different from the seasoned players making the same errors? But then, SPM is the master at talking a lot without saying anything, and building reasonable sounding cases on what is little more than hot air. It seems a shame to lynch him in his first game in years, but that can only protect you so far.

I don't like Brinniel's post at all. By the time she posted there was a lot to comment on, but instead of doing anything useful, she posted a lot of bantering fluff. If she contributes not further I will likely vote for her.

[Pitchwife]

SpM, I hope the remark about your masterpiece being complete referred to your painting, not your post.
So my responding your 'flim-flammery' list in your first post in kind and extending it to include yourself was 'unduly hostile'? Why would you take my words about scales, webs, fur & claws as anything but the Day 1 banter they were - or did I accidentally hit home? And please note that the only words of yours I singled out in my first post were those about Zil, none about myself, as you claim. You only started talking about me and Zil together later, and I've commented on that above. If you still think I'm defending Zil, look at my last two posts.
And if you truly suspect me for such flimsily construed reasons, why would you turn on Lottie for her vote for me, when her reasons are not that much worse? OK, she hasn't really offered that much substance, but 'unnervingly wolfish behavior'? Now those are strong words, and I don't see what she's done to justify them.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

she sets out her thoughts on everyone in the village. Only it doesn’t really say very much at all. Indeed, if I am honest, it is a masterpiece of non-committal. For each villager, she either says they might be a Wolf or they might not, or she has nothing to say about them.
...
Overall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.
...
my main suspect by far is Loslote, on account of her unnervingly Wolfish behaviour.

It's interesting you say that you think that those who see Nienna's reactions to a first vote of the Day as over-nervous á la wolves are suspicious but then base your own vote on something as solid as what you say in the quote above...

Wouldn't this quote of yours describe also your vote and your reasons for it?

Originally Posted by Spm

I am more alarmed about those who have sought to make more of it than it merits

Okay. Yes, there's very little to go on as usual on Day1 and we all have to find whatever there could be to help us in our judgements. I think you Spm are reading way too much in Loslote's indecisiveness and I see more merit in the fact that Nienna reacted so strongly on the vote on her. I don't think either is a good "case" in any way but both are better than nothing.

But are they or either of them correct arguments? That's the tough one...

EDIT: X'd with Roa

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

So, just like practically everyone else on your list, he might be a Wolf but he might not be, but you’re going to vote for him anyway. Why him in particular? The vote ends up being very unreasoned. Overall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.

She's only played one game before, though.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I am currently wary of Pitchwife, Inzil, Larien and Nerwen, for the reasons stated above.

Why me? Because of what Morsul said?

EDIT:X'd since SPM.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Legate

Of course Morsul's vote for Nienna has no real substance, but then why are you so overreacting, Nienna? You behave as if half of the village was after you.

The first time I responded I believed he had voted for me because of the role I chose. I wanted to clarify that I chose the character before roles were assigned. I also wanted to let him know that those are not good reasons to vote for someone. It may have seemed a little defensive because there were a few games where people have lynched me on Day One for bad reasons and I didn't'/don't want that to happen again.

Hope that clears that up.

I have to vote now because I have to run and get some work done.

I'm hesitant to vote Hakon because he is usually lynched early just because of his playing style.

I have no real reason for voting anyone right now so I'm going to have to go on my gut. There is just something a bit off with Pitchwife right now... I can't really place my finger on it. I'm really sorry and I know this is a terrible reason to vote for someone but I have nothing stronger.

++ Pitchwife

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

You see, I just don’t get this. A Wolf and an innocent will both approach the question in exactly the same way. Both will be making up something based upon their stated role. I actually preferred [B]Craydon’s[/BOverall, Loslote’s activity comes across to me as typically Wolfish. Posting a fair bit to show she’s engaged, trying to look helpful, but actually avoiding saying very much of anything at all.

Loslote has appeared on my radar as well. Like you, I didn't see that the 'answer a question' prosposition would be of much use in wolf-hunting, yet she landed on it with both feet.
Also, the vote for Pitchwife feels somewhat forced, and looks to me like she's possibly just taking something said by Nog and SPM and running with it.

The deal with Nienna: her reaction to Morsul did look somewhat defensive, especially considering that it was only one vote. Like Legate said, it would be a different matter if it had come at a pivotal time when she was in serious danger of a lynch.

Cray(d)on should get a pass toDay, but toMorrow all bets are off.

Hakon's vote, as so many have noted, was illogical, but it is somewhat in character for him to vote based on hunches and such. I don't think I'll go for him toDay.

EDIT- x'd with lots

[The Saucepan Man]

Don't worry Morsul, you haven't voted yet. Voting is done in a particular way, with double plus signs and in bold type, as follows:

++Name of person you are voting for

I presume that votes should be in bold and don't need to be highlighted in red, as there is nothing that they need be distinguished from.

Originally Posted by Hakon

My vote will most likely be whoever comes off as most suspicious in my opinion.

And there was me thinking that you would vote for whoever looks least suspicious to you ...

Actually, I think wilwa has it about right. Barring any major slip-ups from the Wolves, Day 1 votes are pretty much random, whatever reasons people might come up with. Except the Wolves' votes, of course. And that is one of the main reasons why what happens on Day 1 can be so useful on Day 2. Which reminds me. Let's try to avoid any major Day 1 bandwagons, shall we? They are terribly dangerous things and they make it much easier for the Wolves to hide their votes.

Edit: Crossed with Morsul. Now I don't know whether you have voted or not ...

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Which reminds me. Let's try to avoid any major Day 1 bandwagons, shall we? They are terribly dangerous things and they make it much easier for the Wolves to hide their votes.

Edit: Crossed with Morsul. Now I don't know whether you have voted or not ...

Oh my yes. Day 1 bandwagons rarely seem to ever do anything good. If it's even possible people should try to avoid paying too close attention to what the vote tally is, just focus on who you want to vote for and don't let others' votes influence yours (unless of course you're voting someone because of their vote). Cause bandwagons suck. A bunch of votes for several people are better, and easier to analyse the next Day. (cause like 13 people voting for the same person provides us with nothing)

Morsul confused me right there. Gonna put it to WWn00byness though.

Should be back in yet another half hour. Sorry for all the little bursts, but really can't avoid it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Morsul, old chap, I'll put this down to WWn00byness too, but it is generally considered very bad form in Werewolf games to edit the content of one's posts in any major way. The reason being that a Wolf could otherwise use the edit function to hide its tracks. You can edit to correct something minor like a typo which doesn't affect the content or to indicate where you have cross-posted with someone but, if you do, you should always give the reason for the edit.

If you need to explain something in a previous post, or add to it, or anything like that, then you should put it in a new post.

I'm off to paint something dark, glistening and tentacled. I'll be back later in the Day.

[Morsul the Dark]

Ok... So here's my post explaining my old post

I voted, but not really, so then I was going to change my nonexistent vote, then felt it unfair to other players so I kept my original vote.

so In conclusion my vote is:

++Nienna

Morsul then shuffles off into the stacks to look for the official WWGame Guide... Dewey Don't fail me now!

[Loslote]

I don't think narrations provide anything of importance besides who dies. McCaber wouldn't say who was a wolf right in the story. I'd only vote for something someone else has already posted. Then again, I've only got one more game than you, Morsul, so I could be wrong...but I think the narrations have to include everyone, and it would be hard to make everyone seem perfectly innocent.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I get a bit disturbing feeling from Pitchie's first post. It feels like he tries to look like a critical and autonomous person but still rubbing Spm the right way... Also the way he praises Greenie for great points looks more like trying to make friends than actually giving a verdict on something to the benefit of the townsfolk. So slightly worrying.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I am also aware that scales and webbed hands may hide fur and claws. A perfect disguise, surely, in a village such as this. And yet you seem rather eager to defend Inzil and accuse me, Pitchwife. Did I perhaps hit a raw nerve in my random burblings?

Both of these comments seem a bit of an overreaction to Pitchwife's first words. Granted, I've no idea if he can be trusted, but I see nothing there of particular note.

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Well then I'll vote this post thinking about it after what's been said
Sorry Nienna I feel like a jerk for using a technicality to change my vote so I have to go with my original impulse I'll be more careful in the future

++Nienna

The Admin Thread is the place to find info such as how votes are to be indicated and such. It varies from game to game, depending on mod preferences.