Rock Bands and Tolkien (Nightwish and more)

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

skip, the heavy metal/Tolkien connection is one that puzzled me too. However, I have been working on a book, translating a chapter on that topic which contains very interesting insights. The epicentre of Black Metal is Norway, and musicians who talked to the author of the chapter spoke of the appeal that JRRT's bad guys had for them, especially since Morgoth, Sauron and Co. are associated with the heathen legends of their own Nordic history. Their rebellion against Christianity has moved them to look for those historical/legendary roots, and they found an echo of them in Tolkien's works.

There is also a connection with the role-playing games that many young men in Scandinavian countries enjoyed. Those are strongly Tolkien-inspired, and they provide a framework for fantasy that has found an outlet in the music that these groups make and perform.

I'll spread the word when the book is printed and can be ordered so that those who want to read more can do so.

Oh yeah, the Norwegian black metal guys... In a way they deserve some respect bringing a bit of danger and controversy back into a genre that have become about as edgy as granny's bingo-sessions, but then again, I've heard some downright nasty stories about those cults and there are (or were) apparently some right sinister people involved in that scene, though the media probably blows it out of proportions as usual.

The whole thing is interesting nevertheless, and do let us know about this book. I've a recollection you worked on something similar before, didn't you? And does perhaps your involvement in this book go further than translation?

Morth, Okay Mordor perhaps is a good place for sleazy sex, uppers and downers, screamers and shouters, and that's rock'n'roll for you, but I doubt Tolkien cared for that sort of stuff, nor does his work in any way celebrate or even condone the rebellion, irreverence and reckless abandon rock seem to be about, which is why I think the two don't mix. But I guess if you're a bid Tolkien fan and work in music, references might pop up and that's fair enough. For me though, Tolkien references in rock isn't a plus.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Morth, Okay Mordor perhaps is a good place for sleazy sex, uppers and downers, screamers and shouters, and that's rock'n'roll for you, but I doubt Tolkien cared for that sort of stuff, nor does his work in any way celebrate or even condone the rebellion, irreverence and reckless abandon rock seem to be about, which is why I think the two don't mix. But I guess if you're a bid Tolkien fan and work in music, references might pop up and that's fair enough. For me though, Tolkien references in rock isn't a plus.

I think it depends which book of Tolkien one takes as the quintessential Tolkien.

The Elves of The Silm are very different from the elves of LotR. There's plenty of rebellion, stiff-necked stubborn recklessness, even wild abandon amongst that lot. Ditto CoH. Galadriel might have been rehabilitated for LotR, but she was a rebellious bad girl way back when.

Certainly rock has been a mainstream expression for most youth; it isn't a mere leisure activity but a powerful and moving expression of many things which are important to its audience. In its centrality as meaningful voice it probably is closer to how the elves regard music than most sedate concert-going music experiences. And that centrality of aesthetic experience is what I think many of us appreciate in Tolkien: that art and music and literature can be profoundly important expressions of our human condition. The form and style can differ, but the significance of art, that's what binds Tolkien and the music of his fans.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Certainly rock has been a mainstream expression for most youth; it isn't a mere leisure activity but a powerful and moving expression of many things which are important to its audience. In its centrality as meaningful voice it probably is closer to how the elves regard music than most sedate concert-going music experiences.

Well, reception of 'classical' music doesn't necessarily have to be sedate - I remember singing along full-throatedly with the themes of Mahler or Bruckner symphonies, or even dancing to Stravinsky's Sacre du Printemps at a party ages ago; but you're right, that's unlikely to happen in a concert hall.
What makes rock music different for me is that the experience (especially in a live concert) is much more immediate and ecstatic, and also much more shared - at a good gig, there's a genuine bond between the band and the audience, if only for two hours or so.
Another point: with rock (also folk, and crossovers), you don't have the separation between written score and performance as with 'classical' music. Most rock bands perform their own material, both music and lyrics. In a way, this is the closest thing to the old bards and minstrels since the end of the Middle Ages. In that respect, rock isn't that far from Tolkien at all, I think.
As for 'sex and drugs and rock'n'roll' - well, Tolkien's Elves were pretty much ideal catholics in their sex life, but I can't help wondering about possible mind-altering properties of miruvor and limpë. And the Hobbits with their love for weed and mushrooms...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

We are very much what we read in our youth.

Quite so.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I can't help wondering about possible mind-altering properties of miruvor and limpë. And the Hobbits with their love for weed and mushrooms...

I can't speak for Norwegian metal but many of the heavy rock bands of the late 60s and early 70s, such as Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin, were (or grew out of bands which were) very much involved in the flower power scene and the summer of love. And, I seem to recall that there was a bit of a Tolkien fad associated with that scene, what with hippoes sporting 'Frodo lives' badges 'n all.

Edit: I was going to correct the typo (hippoes = hippies), but I prefer the original.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Well, reception of 'classical' music doesn't necessarily have to be sedate - I remember singing along full-throatedly with the themes of Mahler or Bruckner symphonies, or even dancing to Stravinsky's Sacre du Printemps at a party ages ago; but you're right, that's unlikely to happen in a concert hall.

I quite agree with you. I've found my bigname local orchestra and opera companies very boring, but there are two smaller companies who specialise in baroque music, dance, and opera that are renown for their sprightly performances, entertaining interpretations, and enthusiastic productions that dare to challenge the audience to laugh, clap, enjoy. It can be done.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What makes rock music different for me is that the experience (especially in a live concert) is much more immediate and ecstatic, and also much more shared - at a good gig, there's a genuine bond between the band and the audience, if only for two hours or so.
Another point: with rock (also folk, and crossovers), you don't have the separation between written score and performance as with 'classical' music. Most rock bands perform their own material, both music and lyrics. In a way, this is the closest thing to the old bards and minstrels since the end of the Middle Ages. In that respect, rock isn't that far from Tolkien at all, I think.

Yes, much better said I. I think of the medieval morality plays which presented epic stories wagon by wagon at each corner. The themes might have differred (although death is a constant in rock), but the experience was personal and direct.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

As for 'sex and drugs and rock'n'roll' - well, Tolkien's Elves were pretty much ideal catholics in their sex life

I can't help but think of a certain Mony Python scene which ascribed that 'ideal' to the Anglicans.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

but I can't help wondering about possible mind-altering properties of miruvor and limpë. And the Hobbits with their love for weed and mushrooms...

The dwarves must have had similar recreations but I can't recall reading of it. Maybe just ale, stout, and porter?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...I can't help wondering about possible mind-altering properties of miruvor and limpë. And the Hobbits with their love for weed and mushrooms...

There were lots of giggles in the theatres when pipe-weed was mentioned, but in all fairness, weed is tobacco and there's nothing magical about Maggot's shrooms...

No, if the choice was up to Keith Richards or Iggy Pop, I'd say they go for some Orc-draught. That would be good for an all-nighter methinks. Yeah, in Mordor where shadows lie, I can see some rocking going on, and I bet a band of Orcs could play some good trash metal too (if there us such a thing). It would have to go on behind Sauron's back though, because he would just hate rock'n'roll.

[ninja91]

Led Zeppelin is a band famously noted for referencing Tolkien's works, most specifically in The Battle of Evermore.
Another band which came to my mind is the Viking metal/Black metal band Bathory. I do not have any evidence of them referencing Tolkien's works but I enjoy many songs which are deeply rooted in fantasy and Viking mythos, as well as BATTLE

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I picked up a nice CD recently by a Belgian band Theudho - it's a concept album named The Volsunga Saga.

I would probably not have bought it had I not been familar with the old epic story, so thank Tolkien for that!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by ninja91

Led Zeppelin is a band famously noted for referencing Tolkien's works, most specifically in The Battle of Evermore.

Interesting, the one song that I always think of is "Ramble On"

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We had the theory on this thread that fans of metal saw themselves in Tolkien's villains, as opposition to convention, religion, etc. But the scope is much wider. Yes, the evil Orcs who rampage and steal are metal - but the heroes who give all in battle are also metal. Aragorn's rousing speeches are appropriate as Sauron's malice.

So is theme important? I say: yes! Opposed as Aragorn and Sauron surely are to us, they're both the same to the common radio-listener. Songs about tasting the furious vengeance of a Gondorian blade are no different to an anthem celebrating Trollish bloodlust - to those who constantly sing about being dumped by her boyfriend, going out to party at the club, or exactly how to rhythmically move ones hips at the club because said hips now have no boyfriend.

A huge percentage of metal is made by people who love fantasy, epics, old tales of times past, and so on. Tolkien's influence in this field is far greater than in the rock genre; I suppose simply because rock is closer to the mainstream.