Butturbur's Worst Customers

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

It actually, after seeing this, really makes me think more and more of the Barrow-Wights.

A slight note (I don't want to be picky, but since you said it already for the second time ): it was at Sarn Ford, not at Tharbad. I know that in the rather unexplored wilderness south of Bree one really hardly cares, but these two places are some three days ride from each other and are something completely different. (Sarn Ford were the southern borders of the Shire, that was why the Rangers were there.)

Right about Sarn Ford--I have been reading too much in the Unfinished Tales recently, where Tharbad is discussed quite a bit.

Otherwise, one interpretation is that the foes that would freeze one's heart, or overrun the town, are two separate groups. Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree. One day's ride here makes sense for the Barrow Downs. And those who would overrun Bree are the ruffians coming up from the south...

But I still wonder about those dark figures in the woods that Butterbur mentions...

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Perhaps the Wights will freeze one's heart, but being immobile, are not really a threat to Bree.

Just because Barrow-Wights don't move around much, doesn't mean that they aren't immobile. Don't you remember in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil where there is a Barrow-Wight in his wardrobe? It means that they can, and do sometimes move around elsewhere. Which makes them a likely candidate for those dark shapes in the forest that Butterbur spoke of. Not saying that they are in fact what those shapes were.

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My sentence was a comparison, that the uncanny fear of the Black Riders was greater than any fear of the Barrow Wights (see the bolding I've added here); I didn't say that the wights could not inspire fear. It's a matter of degree.

Oh surely greater, but still, even a BW could "freeze" your heart if it came to that, I am sure.

The verb "lives" refers to "one fat man who lives", not to the foes.

Yes, I know, but he "lives" there apparently all his life, and thus, also the enemies are there all the time when he lives (or at least for some time). Certainly Aragorn was not speaking of a few random wraiths or something that was there just for a week and then went away, it would be phrased a lot differently.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Mewlips??

Well, from what is said about them I got the impression that they live closer to the Sea

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree. Also, I seem to recall there being spirits living all over Eriador. Weren't there many spirits sorts living there because of the Witch King?

Well, the folk who lives in Forochel are the Lossoth, who are again humans. Ruffians, nomads (anyway, the Lossoth don't make impression that they would neither go that far South - what for? - nor that they would be particularly evil, quite the opposite, they seem to be somewhat primitive, but relatively nice folk, something like Drúedain) - all that certainly would not go well in my imagination with the "dark shapes" or the "heart-freezing foes".

As for the spirits, I also don't think there were that plenty of them. The concentration of them nearest to Bree were the Barrow-Downs, we don't know about anything else, though I could imagine some others roaming Angmar or Rhudaur, but that still does not point to the thing Aragorn mentioned. We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

[Pitchwife]

This just reminded me of something:

Originally Posted by LotR Book I, The Shadow of the Past

'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'

The Prof never bothered to explain what business an Ent may have had being abroad on the borders of the Shire, but judging from the description - 'as big as an elm tree, and walking seven years to a stride' - it would seem what Sam's cousin Hal saw was exactly that. But then again, an Ent - or maybe a Huorn? A wandering grove of Huorns in bad mood would surely be enough to freeze poor Barliman's heart!
Point being, if Ents and/or Huorns were roaming around in northern Eriador, who knows what else? It doesn't have to be Barrow-wights or Trolls or anything else we know about - maybe rather something like the Mewlips (good point, Rumil!), if we take them as a placeholder for any kind of creature that doesn't come into the narrative or the larger Legendarium, but may have been there nevertheless. Think of it, we only meet such apparent solitaires as Shelob or the Watcher in the Water because the path of Frodo's quest happened to cross their habitats, but there may have been many more both like and unlike them. So in short, I agree with what Tuor said above, that this is probably rather a case of 'unexplained vistas' extending beyond the frame of the canvas, or maybe rather a vague glimpse of things peeping over the frame of the canvas from outside.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

As was stated before, there are many different creatures in ME, it could have been anyone of them. Aren't there some inhabitants of the Ice Bay of Forochel, or however it's called? They might be coming down to Bree.

I think that they would be the ones that were frozen in that case.

[Alfirin]

Maybe not the Men of Forochel but some of the beasts of Forochel, if the wandered in might cause chills (especially under wicked influence). If Forochel is (in some ways) based on our own far north it might have similar fauna. I would imagine that something along the lines of a polar bear (under a dark influence to direct it) if it wandered into a place like Bree could cause massive consternation and destruction (especially when you consider that ME animals while more diminutive thatn thier First age cousins are sill usally describes as bein much bigger than the one's we are used to so a ME polar bear might likey be along the lines of a cave bear or even a quoquogaq (an enormous polar bear like creature of Inuit legend)) Forochel might also have big nasty Aurochses (if there were wild Kine in Rhun there might have been wild oxen elswhere and possibly even its own, shaggy Oliphaunts. Any of there under a malicios taint would strike fear into ANY villager

[CSteefel]

This discussion now belongs in RPG. Better to stick with the "facts" as actually stated or implied (or not) by Tolkien...

[Bêthberry]

I remain intrigued by Inziladun's question. It is very interesting to consider Aragorn's words at the Council of Elrond in terms of the history of plotting LotR. Consider for a moment some of these situations found in HoME (and possibly UT, although that I haven't that at hand at the moment).

In some of the earlier drafts of LotR, when Aragorn was still the hobbit Trotter, a town was mentioned on the Greenway which would have been within a day's march of Bree (give or take I think), called Andrath (earlier name, Amrath). It was supposed to run between the Barrow Downs and the south Downs. It is listed on Fontad's map of Middle earth (for which information I thank Estelyn, as my Fonstad also is not at hand) ; it was not named on the 1943 map, but Christopher Tolkien's note describes it.

Originally Posted by Christopher Tolkien, fn 7, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoME 7

With this cf. Unfinished Tales p. 348: "The Black Captain established a camp at Andrath, where the Greenway passed in a defile between the Barrow-Downs and the South Downs." On the First Map (p. 305) Andrath (very probably first written Amrath, p.298) is marked as a point beside the Greenway a little nearer to Bree than to Tharbad.

In the early draft according to HoMe 7, Gandalf reports the events with the Chief Rider.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoMe 7

. . . I believe the three Riders reported that Gandalf and "Baggins" had ridden East. Their chieftain was at Amrath, far down the Greenway in the south, and the news must have reached him late on Friday. I fancy the Chief Rider was sorely puzzled when the advance guard reported that Baggins and the Ring had been in Bree the very night when they thought they had caught him in Crickhollow!

One of Tolkien's narrative outlines, entitled "New Plot" presents the events thusly:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, "Of Hamilcar, Gandalf, and Saruman", HoMe 7

D E F G [four Black Riders] with poor Ham now ride to Greenway (does Harry see them? Probably not). At Amrath they meet the King (A) [that is, the chief Black Rider] and B C, on Wednesday 28th, leaving for the moment the Road deserted. The King [ie, Witch King] is angry at this. He is suspicious of a plot since Ham has no Ring. D E are sent back to Bree, arriving late on Thursday 29th . (Meanwhile, the hobbits have got to the Inn.) F G go back to the Shire.

This shows that Amrath was likely a day's march of Bree.

As CT makes clear, this section of LotR (concerning Ham Bolger) went through several narrative outlines and the Council of Elrond went through five versions, the fourth of which ends with Aragorn's speech, then incompletely developed.

While Ham Bolger and Andrath are excised from the fifth version, it is intriguing to imagine that Andrath still existed in Tolkien's mind and formed a backdrop to the revision of Aragorn's speech.

Originally Posted by Aragorn, Council of Elrond, LotR

'But my home, such as I have, is in the North. For here the heirs of Valandil have ever dwelt in long line unbroken from father unto son for many generations. Our days have darkened, and we have dwindled; but ever the Sword has passed to a new keeper. And this I will say to you, Boromir, ere I end. Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters--but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only. [my bolding]

Who or what Aragorn refers to in the subsequent paragraphs--the dark things [that] come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods--he is elaborating on his initial statement that he hunted "servants of the Enemy."

Originally Posted by Legate

Yes, I know, but he "lives" there apparently all his life, and thus, also the enemies are there all the time when he lives (or at least for some time).

I'm inclined to interpret Aragorn's comment as the Instaneous present, meaning at the time Aragorn speaks, rather than the Timeless present. In fact, I might even say that Aragron's speech partakes of a performative declaration, which, according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A University Grammar of English, is expressed in the simple present Instaneous. But you don't have to take my word for it; I'm just the resident pedant here.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm inclined to interpret Aragorn's comment as the Instaneous present, meaning at the time Aragorn speaks, rather than the Timeless present. In fact, I might even say that Aragron's speech partakes of a performative declaration, which, according to Quirk and Greenbaum's A University Grammar of English, is expressed in the simple present Instaneous. But you don't have to take my word for it; I'm just the resident pedant here.

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)
So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

[Rumil]

Interesting stuff!

Andrath - is it known to be/have been an actual settlement rather than some sort of location/geographical feature?

I always had the vague impression that it was the name of the defile or pass between the Barrow Downs and South Downs (from UT), but would be delighted to be proved wrong!

As to the name; 'rath' is path, way or road, right? Like Rath Dinen. What does the 'And' mean (or the 'Am' in the alternative Amrath)? The Greek andros to make 'man-path' or 'Men's Road' would fit nicely I think but not sure JRRT used much Greek.

Meanwhile on Mewlips - they seem to me to be Marsh-dwellers from the illustrations and talk of bogs in the poem, so Midgewater is my suspect Mewlip-den. Though conceivably Swanfleet or even the Gladden Fields? If so, are the Mewlips really Hobbit folk-memories of Gollum??

Somewhere after leaving Bree Aragorn mentions 'spies' more formidable than Bill Ferny and that the beasts and bird can't be trusted iirc.

'Freeze his heart' might well be metaphorical. For example a band of raiding goblins, trolls or even brigands could happily commit such atrocities upon the peaceful folk of Bree such that Butterbur's heart would be 'frozen' by their (non-supernatural) savagery. What think ye?

I do like the spotting of 'dark things in the woods' - could be an owl or a deer or a wolf or.... a....a...who knows?

Maybe Aragorn & co. have the authority to prevent the wights wandering from the Downs, in the same way that A has authority to use the Palantir, due to the Dunedain nature of the barrows at least (OK a whole different kettle of fissssshhh !). The dark shapes being wights or allied spirits transgressing the 'bounds' put about their land in the absence of the Rangers. (He says, shamelessly making stuff up ).

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)

In any case the reference seems to be something resembling a more or less permanent threat to Bree, so not the Black Riders.

Probably parsing things too much here, but I suppose it could be noteworthy that Butterbur sees those dark figures in the woods once the Rangers leave the area (to help out Aragorn). Still hard to say whether there is something real there, or just the inflamed superstitions given all the incidents of the preceding period...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Forgive me for trying to out-pedant the resident pedant, but - if Aragorn's words are supposed to be in the Instantaneous Present, they can't refer to Black Riders, as these were nowhere near Bree and/or Andrath/Amrath at the time of his speaking (being unhorsed and uncloaked after the Incident at Bruinen Ford, and their present whereabouts unknown). And if he was using the Timeless Present, he can't be referring to Black Riders either, as they weren't habitually to be found within a day's march of Bree. (Also, there's the bit about "...if he [=the 'one fat man', Butterbur] were not guarded ceaselessly", which implies a constant threat.)

Always interesting to meet another pedant!

The relevant point--for me--about Aragorn's words is that they are performative. He is addressing his rival Boromir and providing a correction to Boromir's rather arrogant claims for Gondor's singular status as sole protector of the realm. He is speaking of his generations of heirs of Valandil. It is heightened speech.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So I take it you're suggesting that Andrath/Amrath wasn't just a ruined town chosen by the Nazgûl as a convenient basis camp, but maybe a permanent settlement populated by 'servants of the Enemy' (possibly refugees from Angmar or remnants of the Witch-King's army who settled there after the wars?) - kind of a 'home away from home' for the Nazgûl, where the Witch-King could count on the support of his former followers or their descendants? Now that's a possibility - and it would make Aragorn's speech one of those instances where an idea from the early drafts is preserved in the final narrative with its original context either changed beyond recognition or lost altogether in the revision, but still implied if not explicitly mentioned. If so, good point!

I was responding to Legate's comment above

Originally Posted by Legate

We don't know anything about another "permanent settlement of wraiths" close to Bree.

and wished to point out that there was a Nazgul camp close to Bree in the earlier drafts. It's particulars we don't know (unless they are given in UT, which I don't have here to check). But Tolkien did.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Here's a thought. The Watcher, I believe, came to its pool by
traveling up the Sirannon. Why not have similar or some other
krakenish creaures or , say,walking catfish on steroids
swimming from the ocean up the Brandywine? If Breelanders fish
go boating on the Brandywine they might have been terrorized by such.

And it could explain the disappearance of Bilbo's parents. A watching
hobbit from a distance sees Bungo go into the river and then what
looks like a hand or arm grasp Belladonna Took and pull her in.
Hmmm.