What's in a Staff?

[Findegil]

Gandalfs staff is mentioned at his arival because he is leaning on it, like an old man needing it support. At least that is theoverall impresion I got from the discribtion.

I think in the secene with Gandalf Radagasts staff was not mentioned, but Saruman confirmed that Radagast had one when he blamed Gandalf lustin all staffes of the five wizards.

Respetfully
Findegil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Gandalfs staff is mentioned at his arival because he is leaning on it, like an old man needing it support. At least that is theoverall impresion I got from the discribtion.

If that was the case, why wouldn't it say 'an old man, leaning on his staff', to show others had them, but were not relying on them for support?

Bêthberry and Pitch, I'll outdo you in pedantry yet!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that was the case, why wouldn't it say 'an old man, leaning on his staff', to show others had them, but were not relying on them for supprt?

Bêthberry and Pitch, I'll outdo you in pedantry yet!

Well, as it is that point is moot since Saruman's rant prove beyond reasonable doubt all five Istari carried staffs, wouldn't you say? If not, Saruman's metaphor would make little sense.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Well, as it is that point is moot since Saruman's rant prove beyond reasonable doubt all five Istari carried staffs, wouldn't you say? If not, Saruman's metaphor would make little sense.

I was mainly addressing the question of whether they all had the staffs upon arrival, with them being made of some 'enchanted' Valinorean wood, as posited here.

[skip spence]

Aha, I see.

Haven't read the whole thread and don't know if this has been brought up but one thing to consider in connection to this is Gandalf's second staff, the one he held as G the White after his previous one was broken in Moria.

Now as I understand it, Gandalf *died* and was sent back again. A question to ponder is whether this coming and going only concerns his soul, ie that his soul left the body which remained on the mountainside and then was sent back, or if he was actually reincarnated or healed bodily in Valinor (or elsewhere) and then physically brought back. If the former is true, which is what I would favour, his new Gandalf the White staff would presumably have been fashioned by wood from the realm of Lorien and not out of the Undying Land.

Hm. As I'm writing I seem to remember that he was sent back naked though, wasn't he? That would indicate that his physical body made the mystical journey, unless his last act before collapsing in a heap on the ground was uncloaking Then he could have had a new magical staff with him too I suppose as a staff can't possibly be considered a piece of clothing.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that was the case, why wouldn't it say 'an old man, leaning on his staff', to show others had them, but were not relying on them for supprt?

Without the possessive, of course, he could theoretically have been leaning on somebody else's staff which he had borrowed for the occasion...

Bêthberry and Pitch, I'll outdo you in pedantry yet!

Keep trying!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Keep trying!

In light of this exchange, might I suggest that it may possibly be appropriate to reconsider this word staffs which has been used several times on this thread.

Yes, most internet dictionaries do allow staffs as well as staves for the plural of staff, when meaning a walking stick or rod or wand signifying authority. [Reference: Dictionary.com ; Meriam-Webster online dictionary ]Yet they do not reject staves. Consider the suitability of staves!

We are discussing JRR Tolkien, an English author whose work is so very much predicated upon language, and older forms of language in particular. His world of Middle-earth is--well, one might as well say, Sic transit gloria mundi, although we do attempt to relive it every day. In Tolkien's work, old and archaic forms come alive again.

Would it not seem preferable then to recognise and respect the good Professor's delight in the particular and precise use of language by using a word which comes closest to this sense of language?

The OED, the dictionary upon which Tolkien himself worked--not without some interesting results--has this to say about staves:

Originally Posted by OED, staves

The plural form staves is now somewhat archaic, exc. in certain senses in which a sing. form STAVE has been developed from it; but it is still preferred in those senses that are confined to literary use.

Of course it comes down to a matter of preference, but it seems to me that wizards just seem to merit staves rather than staffs.

[Mnemosyne]

Of course, "staff" could merely be a mistransliteration of "staph," short for "staphlococcus," which sheds a whole new light on the text. Could it be that the Valar's true reason for sending the Istari was to experiment on the possibilities of biological warfare?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Of course it comes down to a matter of preference, but it seems to me that wizards just seem to merit staves rather than staffs.

If it's archaic, it has to be good.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Of course, "staff" could merely be a mistransliteration of "staph," short for "staphlococcus," which sheds a whole new light on the text. Could it be that the Valar's true reason for sending the Istari was to experiment on the possibilities of biological warfare?

Indeed. 'Staph' in the hands of a wizard could be more than a microorganism of old age...

As for skip's musing of what was meant by 'naked', I think that indicated Gandalf's power and spritual status were not so tightly veiled, not so much a physical appearance. 'Naked' in the sense that he was not as attached to the physical body as before, hence his statement to the Three Hunters that none of them had weapons that would harm him anymore. And also, Gwaihir's comment that Gandalf was so light after his return that he felt Gandalf would simply float to the earth like a feather if dropped, seems to point to a less physically 'there' Gandalf.

[Morthoron]

I believe a wizard uses a staff simply because constructing a giant, wooden badger would be unfeasible and simply too bulky to lug about. And imagine the maintenance and upkeep!

Besides, from a literary standpoint, Gandalf saying, "Saruman, your giant, wooden badger is broken!" simply does not have the serious tone necessary for such a stirring moment in the book. Although as a special effects sequence, Saruman's giant, wooden badger collapsing to the ground in a great crash of shards and splinters might be impressive.

Ummm...have I mentioned that, once again, I have had far too much coffee to drink this morning?