Nenya or the Elessar?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Galin

With reference to the Three: '... included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change.' JRRT, draft letter 181

The powers of the Elessar: 'For it is said that those who looked through this stone saw things that were withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth, and that the hands of one who held it brought to all that they touched healing from hurt.'

And considering Galadriel's comments to Celebrimbor (or Gandalf), with respect to fading and death, I think it's possible that Nenya essentially did the job of the Elessar, and so she handed the latter on.

The Elessar of Celebrimbor was said to be the greatest of his works: 'save the Three Rings only' and its light said to have less power than the original (within the conception of two Elessars, as there are two internal conceptions proposed).

In the Silmarillion, it is said that the chief powers of all the rings alike was the slowing of decay. But then Tolkien goes on to say that Sauron desired the Three, because they possessed the greatest powers and those who bore them could ward off decay and postpone weariness. This gives me the impression that the other 16 rings could possibly "slow" decay/time (as well as enhance their bearers' natural powers) but not to the extent that the Three could. Can we safely assume that the Three could completely "arrest" time and decay, whereas the 16 lesser rings could only "slow" time, or don't even have that capability at all (except for Sauron's extra hocus pocus), hence the Three's loftier rank over the 16?

[Galin]

Hmm, as you note (letter 131 states that) the chief power 'of all the rings alike' was the preservation or slowing of decay, and it's also said that the Three were supremely beautiful and powerful and 'directed to the preservation of beauty'.

I've not yet looked into the further distinction you wonder about, although I don't remember a 'stop' versus 'slow' distinction at the moment -- in specific comparison between the Three and other rings in any event.

There wasn't even a mention of her usage of Nenya until she was officially elected to rule Lorien.

There is a general mention that might imply the Three were in use earlier in the Third Age (Appendix B), as it is noted that for long the Elves were at peace, wielding the Three while Sauron slept -- this could be a general statement but my guess is that Artanis would have used Nenya before settling in Lorien (not that you said otherwise).

So do you think she was using the Elessar during her settlement at Dol Amroth, brief visits to Lorien, and her stay at Rivendell?

In my opinion Galadriel's settlement at Dol Amroth was rejected and essentially replaced with Lindon, although admittedly the evidence is somewhat thin. Concerning Nenya (and after the One had been lost to Sauron of course), to me it seems possible that Galadriel used it to help introduce the Mallorns before she settled permanently in Lorien. Cerin Amroth had Mallorns of great height, assuming they were planted there when the mound was raised, anyway.

And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar.

I think the same expression could be used of Galadriel wielding Nenya, that all things grew fair about her (you didn't comment on that point so I'm not sure whether you agree or not, or that I made clear my opinion).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

^ Yes, perhaps the same expression may apply, but did not Tolkien say in one of his letters that the rings were "endowed with the powers of preservation, not of birth,"? That makes me think they could not create but just preserve. Hence why they attempted at nothing new, but instead, clinging to the old, right? They could "embalm" but could not create, whereas the Elessar could "birth" or create but not preserve or hold back time. It seems to me that had Galadriel would have to actively maintain her realm with the Elessar, since it could not hold back time. But with Nenya, she could just halt change and decay over a couple of miles without actively or routinely maintaining flora, right?

Also, in the UT, her ring Nenya was referred to as the "Chief of the Three." Chief of what? My guess is that Nenya was the "Chief" in preserving of the Three, while Vilya was the mightiest in defending (maybe), and narya the greatest in inspiring people. Because if you compare Rivendell and Lorien, you could almost feel like Lorien is like a mini Valinor. It may be the backgrounds of the bearers, Galadriel having lived in the West, but in her land... the preservation is so felt compared to Rivendell. I don't know why Frodo says, "the wearing is slow in Lorien, for the power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours though short they may seem." Whereas Gandalf clearly states after his ressurection that he "tarried there in the ageless time of that land, where the days bring healing, not decay." These are two different perceptions, I think. The hobbit suggest that Lorien is wearing slowly, while the Istari says it is clearly ageless (weariness is completely arrested, not slowed). I think I'll trust the maia. Tolkien says so himself that the Three can ward off the weariness and decay. Maybe it's just the other 16 that can only slow the weariness and decay, but they could never really ward it off to the degree that the Three can. Hence Sauron's great desire to possess them.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Yes, perhaps the same expression may apply, but did not Tolkien say in one of his letters that the rings were "endowed with the powers of preservation, not of birth,"? That makes me think they could not create but just preserve. Hence why they attempted at nothing new, but instead, clinging to the old, right? They could "embalm" but could not create, whereas the Elessar could "birth" or create but not preserve or hold back time.

Yes, good point; but Tolkien also says the Elven rings enhanced the natural powers of the possessor (which I assumed was present in the Three as well), and Galadriel seems concerned with growing things. Mallorns would not grow in Lindon (part of old Beleriand), but 'under her power' they did in Lorien -- though I guess that could mean under her power unaided by the Ring, and perhaps I should reconsider these matters.

That all things grew fair about her could mean that things grew without decay. And according to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn at least: '... she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful.'

At some point when she could use Nenya anyway, one assumes.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Also, in the UT, her ring Nenya was referred to as the "Chief of the Three." Chief of what? My guess is...

This also could be an external slip by Tolkien I think, JRRT forgetting what he had already published concerning Vilya -- meaning that he was maybe just thinking of characterizing Nenya as generally the most powerful of the Three. We must remember that the Elessar text is charcterized as a: 'very rough manuscript' and in 'the first stage of composition'.

The hobbit suggest that Lorien is wearing slowly, while the Istari says it is clearly ageless (weariness is completely arrested, not slowed). I think I'll trust the maia.

In my opinion Lorien could be said to be 'ageless' or timeless in general, if the wearing was either greatly slowed or fully arrested. That doesn't mean I think I have proven anything here, only that I think these two statements are not necessarily at odds given that I don't think Gandalf's need be taken so precisely.

Back to the Mallorns, I would say that the Elves did not need the Rings to create new things, but that the Third Age nevertheless was (generally speaking) considered the fading years of the Eldar, and they wielded the Three while Sauron slept, but attempted (as noted): 'nothing new, living in memory of the past.' The preservation power some Elves now did have (or could enjoy) went hand in hand with their tendencies here.

But was the growing of Mallorns in Lorien something 'new'? In one sense yes, but the trees came from Eressea to Numenor, and so to Gil-galad, and in another sense the Mallorns were not a new thing in the world, if new East of the Sea. They added an Eressean beauty to this 'mini Valinor' or sorts. Of course they must be grown, and one could even say they were born anew in Middle-earth I guess, which appears to go against Tolkien's own statement 'not of birth' (if Nenya was used to aid in this endeavour).

Or am I just trying to hold on to a (as I say above) 'possible' notion? because I like the idea of Galadriel helping the Mallorns thrive East of the Sea, in part due to Nenya.

[Eönwë]

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

According to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (which I raise here because according to CJRT The Elessar goes with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in certain features, and was probaly written about the same time, or a little earlier): '... and by its power [Nenya] the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful.'


A further issue is that of competing conceptions and texts: in the later conception, it is not a given (at least) that Galadriel was in Greenwood (extended Lorien) when she received the Elessar. In my opinion she was not in Lorien until after she had received Nenya -- which is problematic with respect to her passing the Elessar on when she received Nenya, as she would have passed it on before even arriving in Lorien.


Even within the context of the earlier texts it still might be noted that the window for using the Elessar ends quite early with respect to Galadriel's relationship to Lorien. Galadriel does not take up her 'second rule' until the Third age and the disaster in Moria, almost two thousand years into the Third Age, as in this conception, after the Fall of Eregion she leaves Lorinand, and it was: '... not until far in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981'.

Of course one need not merge these two texts, but in The Elessar itself (two stone conception) Galadriel still gives up the stone when she receives Nenya, and one has to fit that with 'some' version of her history in connection to Lorien.

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote: And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar. So do you think? This must be why Rivendell wasn't as beautiful compared to Lorien, since Elrond did not possess the Elassar. He'd only be able to "preserve" the pre-existing vegetation that was in Rivendell, whereas Galadriel was able to beautify Lorien. Thoughts?

Delving deeper here...

In the description of the powers of the Elessar-stone the main focus seems (to me) to be on healing. At Sirion's haven Earendil uses it to heal both Men and Elves, and beasts, and even the land appears to reflect this, as: 'all things were for a while green and fair' (ignoring here that in The Silmarillion the healing is attributed to the Silmaril).

Noting Galadriel's complaint (to both Gandalf and Celebrimbor): 'for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.' (to Gandalf). And similarly to Celebrimbor: 'I would have trees and grass about me that do not die -- here in the land that is mine' And looking back at the earlier description of Earendil's stone: '... withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth'

Is Galadriel asking for the power to make Lorien more beautiful? if the Elessar made things more beautiful they would still fade and die, arguably making Galadriel's grief even more piercing. And in the 'two Elessar' conception Galadriel did not know that she would later have Nenya to preserve the work of the Elessar, and even upon receiving her Ring, she could not use it for many years to come in any event (and in the 'one Elessar' conception she already had Nenya when the Stone came to her, which is why I fail to see why she would say these things to Gandalf at this point).

In any case I think The Elessar text is very much a draft text, and not merely with respect to Celebrimbor's changing history (since he became Feanorian).