Nenya or the Elessar?

[Eönwë]

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Well, in my opinion, I think it that Galadriel used the Elessar to build up Lorien, and when she got Nenya she just used to to keep it the same once it was complete (so she didn't need the Elessar any more).

According to Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn (which I raise here because according to CJRT The Elessar goes with Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn in certain features, and was probaly written about the same time, or a little earlier): '... and by its power [Nenya] the realm of Lorinand was strengthened and made beautiful.'


A further issue is that of competing conceptions and texts: in the later conception, it is not a given (at least) that Galadriel was in Greenwood (extended Lorien) when she received the Elessar. In my opinion she was not in Lorien until after she had received Nenya -- which is problematic with respect to her passing the Elessar on when she received Nenya, as she would have passed it on before even arriving in Lorien.


Even within the context of the earlier texts it still might be noted that the window for using the Elessar ends quite early with respect to Galadriel's relationship to Lorien. Galadriel does not take up her 'second rule' until the Third age and the disaster in Moria, almost two thousand years into the Third Age, as in this conception, after the Fall of Eregion she leaves Lorinand, and it was: '... not until far in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lorinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981'.

Of course one need not merge these two texts, but in The Elessar itself (two stone conception) Galadriel still gives up the stone when she receives Nenya, and one has to fit that with 'some' version of her history in connection to Lorien.

Gorthaur the Cruel wrote: And do you also think that she beautified Lorien with the Elessar instead of Nenya, for Nenya's main funtion was only to arrest decay and change. And it is said that all things grew fair about her with the Elessar. So do you think? This must be why Rivendell wasn't as beautiful compared to Lorien, since Elrond did not possess the Elassar. He'd only be able to "preserve" the pre-existing vegetation that was in Rivendell, whereas Galadriel was able to beautify Lorien. Thoughts?

Delving deeper here...

In the description of the powers of the Elessar-stone the main focus seems (to me) to be on healing. At Sirion's haven Earendil uses it to heal both Men and Elves, and beasts, and even the land appears to reflect this, as: 'all things were for a while green and fair' (ignoring here that in The Silmarillion the healing is attributed to the Silmaril).

Noting Galadriel's complaint (to both Gandalf and Celebrimbor): 'for leaves fall and flowers fade; and my heart yearns, remembering trees and grass that do not die. I would have these in my home.' (to Gandalf). And similarly to Celebrimbor: 'I would have trees and grass about me that do not die -- here in the land that is mine' And looking back at the earlier description of Earendil's stone: '... withered or burned healed again, or as they were in the grace of their youth'

Is Galadriel asking for the power to make Lorien more beautiful? if the Elessar made things more beautiful they would still fade and die, arguably making Galadriel's grief even more piercing. And in the 'two Elessar' conception Galadriel did not know that she would later have Nenya to preserve the work of the Elessar, and even upon receiving her Ring, she could not use it for many years to come in any event (and in the 'one Elessar' conception she already had Nenya when the Stone came to her, which is why I fail to see why she would say these things to Gandalf at this point).

In any case I think The Elessar text is very much a draft text, and not merely with respect to Celebrimbor's changing history (since he became Feanorian).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

So we can agree that the Elessar merely healed, but did not have the power to perpetually rejuvenate and halt decay within several miles like Nenya. It seems to me that Celebrimbor learnt from his shortcomings with the Elessar (no power to hold back time) and combined this lore with what he knew of Sauron's to perfect the Three, though Nenya truly does stand (compared to Narya and Vilya) out in this area. One could view the Elessar as an "essay" before the Three.

Now there's been some posters on here that accuse Galadriel of flagrantly using Nenya in a hubristic attempt to replicate Valinor and its timelessness. Do y'all agree? Granted, she did come from the Blessed Realm, but can we not account for this as a natural characteristic of her ring, Nenya? It is the "Chief" of the Three. Not to mention Celebrimbor picking it for her... specifically her. There must be a purpose for it. Or is it simply a reflection of each of the bearers innate powers? For example, I disagree that Elrond uses Vilya conservatively. To me, he uses Vilya just as he should within the measure of his innate strength.


Alrigght, sorry for getting off-topic. So then if the Elessar was made in Gondolin, then it must be responsible for the growth of Mallorn in Gondolin, right? I'm not sure where i read it, but there was a mention of mallorns flourishing within Gondolin.

One other thing, it seems that the Silmaril has this rejuvenating power as well. Was it really the Elessar at work in the havens of Sirion, or was it the Silmaril?

And why does Treebeard say this: "Those were the broad days! Time was when I could walk and sing all day and hear no more than the echo of my own voice in the hollow hills. The woods were like the woods of Lothlorien, only thicker, stronger, younger. And the smell of the air! I used to spend a week just breathing."

Thicker, stronger, and younger? Lorien was the fairest place in ME. What is he talking about? His forest doesn't even have mallorns and mallorns are the mightiest trees.

[Mnemosyne]

There are actually some different contradictory texts on Mallorns, I think. The main one I remember said they didn't exist until Numenor.

Plus then we've got the amazing Mallorn in the Shire in the Fourth Age while the Elessar was chillin' in Minas Tirith. I just don't see the connection here.

[Galin]

So then if the Elessar was made in Gondolin, then it must be responsible for the growth of Mallorn in Gondolin, right? I'm not sure where i read it, but there was a mention of mallorns flourishing within Gondolin.

That's from a note in Unfinished Tales, but my answer would be: not necessarily (that they must be due to the Elessar).

Galadriel appears to do something quite notable, getting Mallorns to grow East of the Misty Mountains -- notable in that they would not grow in Lindon that is, a very western part of Middle-earth and a remnant of the Drowned Lands, so to speak; and peopled by Elves, including High Elves -- and the Mallorn (with soil) of the Shire also hails from her of course.

Was this aided by Nenya? again I'm not positive, and maybe I'm not giving Galadriel enough credit. Perhaps it is because Galadriel is her great self, but in any case Nenya could be employed in the Third Age, before Cerin Amroth was raised at least (according to a passage in Unfinished Tales), and so the idea came into my head.

But that is only one 'possible' scenario anyway, and if I have missed something that shows the Mallorns are (or must be) present in Lorien in the Second Age, then I must abandon the (specific) idea of Galadriel using Nenya to help the Mallorns take root, as she would be using her ring before Sauron lost the One.

One other thing, it seems that the Silmaril has this rejuvenating power as well. Was it really the Elessar at work in the havens of Sirion, or was it the Silmaril?

I'm not sure this was meant to be an internal variation (not that you necessarily meant that it was). If not we have two (external) arguably competing ideas, with the Silmaril noted in The Tale of Years for instance (The War of the Jewels):

511 '... reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril' CJRT notes here: 'Cf. the Quenta (IV. 152): 'for them seemed that in that jewel lay the gift of bliss and healing that had come upon their houses and their ships; also AB 2 (V. 143).' And of course he chose the Silmaril for the 1977 Silmarillion.

I would have done the same

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Galadriel appears to do something quite notable, getting Mallorns to grow East of the Misty Mountains -- notable in that they would not grow in Lindon that is, a very western part of Middle-earth and a remnant of the Drowned Lands, so to speak; and peopled by Elves, including High Elves -- and the Mallorn (with soil) of the Shire also hails from her of course.

Was this aided by Nenya? again I'm not positive, and maybe I'm not giving Galadriel enough credit. Perhaps it is because Galadriel is her great self, but in any case Nenya could be employed in the Third Age, before Cerin Amroth was raised at least (according to a passage in Unfinished Tales), and so the idea came into my head.

As to the flourishing of the Mallorn in the Shire, and the accelarated growth of the flora where the soil from Lórien was left, it seems that could not have been the work of Nenya. Sam's planting of the seed and use of the soil grains came after the destruction of the One, and subsequent loss of the Three's power. Unless it was due to some lingering effect of the Elessar, I'd have to ascribe the virtues of Sam's gift from Galadriel to her native power entirely.

'In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it.'

FOTR Lothlórien (emphasis added)

She'd already handed off the Elessar to Aragorn at that point, notably.

[Galin]

Good quote and point Inziladun.

I also have found another problem with the (my 'possible') Nenya theory:

Haldir says: '... and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built.' An older conception might lie behind this line as well, but in a later note published in The History of Galadriel and Celeborn chapter (Unfinished Tales), it is said: '... for Lorien after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age became a land of uneasy vigilance, and Amroth must have dwelt in growing disquiet ever since Dol Guldur was established in Mirkwood.' And that Amroth's flet on the hill of Cerin Amroth: '... was principally designed to watch Dol Guldur across the Anduin.'

My guess at 'happier days' for Amroth would have been the years before the Shadow arose. Granted it is only happy-er but still, according to the text titled Amroth and Nimrodel: 'His land had peace for many years after the defeat of Sauron. Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. This he did because of his love for Nimrodel. For long years he had loved her...'

This is arguably 'better' I think (to some degree!) with respect to agreeing with The Lord of the Rings.

If I adjust my chronology along these lines however, I think I will have trouble with Galadriel using Nenya to aid with the introduction of the mallorns in Lorien, because the suggestion within the later notes found in Unfinished Tales is that her first visit to Lorien in the Third Age (when Nenya could be employed) was roughly about the time of the growing shadow of Mirkwood (TA 1050 a shadow falls on Greenwood) and the matter of Dol Guldur (in c. TA 1100 the Wise discovered that an evil power had made a stronghold in Dol Guldur).

But anyway, as I say, good point!