Last names in Middle-earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thinlómien · 12-09-2009, 04:41 PM

Don't forget Breelander humans, they had last names too. (And when I'm personally meddling with M-E in my RPGs, I made Haradians have last names too, just for interest...

)

I would like to point out, however, that (if I'm correct) last names as we know them is a fairly recent thing in the western world. Nobility had their family names (but there's in M-E the house of this and that to represent the same thing) but normal people, especially peasants, had no last names. If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above.

Ibrîniðilpathânezel · 12-09-2009, 05:04 PM

We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....)

Thinlómien · 12-09-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....)

What about Fréalaf Hildeson, Helm Hammerhand's nephew who became the king after him?

Alfirin · 12-09-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above.

Don't forget profession, in a lot of the parts of the world at one time, you surname was the sort of work you did. Think about how many common anglo-saxon surnames are professions, Thatcher, Smith, Weaver, Carter, Carpenter, Hunter etc.

I would also like to point out that in our own world historically, there were a lot of cultures where you weren't allowed to have a surname if you were a commoner, that was a privledge reserved for those of noble blood. It underescored the fact that they were important and you weren't. for example if I recall The first non-noble class person in Japan to get a surname didn't do so until the late 1870's, and THAT was a special reward bestowed by the emperor (for suving lost at sea for a record breaking time, as I recall)

Galin · 12-09-2009, 08:44 PM

Interesting line from Aragorn...

'But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'

Morthoron · 12-09-2009, 09:07 PM

Among Elves and Dwarves last names are honorific titles, like Thorin Oakenshield or Finrod Felagund, and are not passed down generationally like among the anachronistic Hobbits and Bree men.

Selmo · 12-10-2009, 03:56 AM

Hobbits were very keen on keeping track of their ancestors and relatives.
They had to be; their's was a society in which your status depended on who you were related to rather than your abilities or achievements.

Having family names (surnames) helped everyone to know their place (and be kept in their place) in the Hobbit hierarchy.

In other societies it was easier to know your place; you were either the King or you weren't.

.

.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-10-2009, 07:07 AM

A lot of this of course is Tolkien's technique of 'calquing:' the Shire (and Bree) are intended to have the feel of relatively modern England, whereas the other cultures are more archaic. The Anglo-Saxons has no surnames! A formation like Harold Godwinson was a cognomen, a descriptive epithet, used to distinguish him from other Harolds (and to remind folks that he was the son of the great Earl Godwin). Likewise, 'Frealaf Hildeson' appears as a tip that Frealaf was not in the direct male line, but Helm's nephew by his sister Hilde.

Galin · 12-10-2009, 10:32 AM

Isn't Legolas' last name Greenleaf?

For those of you without The History of Middle-Earth series, or for those of you who don't care and desire a sleep-aid, below are some points concerning certain Elves and naming customs. I have underlined certain terms for no real reason.

There are basically two accounts and I'm not sure if the account from The Peoples of Middle-Earth is supposed to supersede the one from Morgoth's Ring or not. My guess is they can be somewhat merged however (I note for example: 'In which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar' with respect to the Chosen-name). Anyway...

Of Naming Morgoth's Ring

The description begins with respect to the naming of Children among the Noldor. Father-name -- it was the right of the father to devise this first name. It remained unaltered save for such changes as might befall its spoken form in the passing of the long years (even the tongues of the Eldar were subject to change). It is said that in the early days of the Eldar '... it was then still the custom for the father-name of a son to be a modification of the father's name (as Finwe/ Curufinwe) or a patronymic (as Finwion 'son of Finwe'). The father-name of a daughter would likewise often be derived from the name of the mother.'

Chosen-name -- in which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar. It is said here that the Elf-child had the right to name himself or herslf. The ceremony of 'Name-choosing' could not take place before the child was deemed ready and capable of lámatyáve, as the Noldor called it: that is, of individal pleasure in the sounds and forms of words. In elder times the Chosen-name or second name was usually freshly devised. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence '...it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.'

The 'true-names' are here said to be the Father-name and Chosen-name, and the Chosen-names were said to be regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property. New chosen names could be added.

Anessi 'given or added names'. Here we have the Mother-name, a name of insight or of foresight. A Mother-name was given in the hour of birth or on some other occasion of moment, indicating some dominant feature of the Elf-child's nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. When solemnly given a Mother-name could also be regarded as a true name and was sometimes placed immediately after the Father-name. Mother-names of insight in general use sometimes replaced the Father-name and Chosen-name, however the Father-name and the Chosen-name (among those that had the custom of essecilme that is) remained ever the true or primary name, and a necessary part of any full title.

Other Given-names were not considered true names, and names or nicknames of this kind might be given by anyone... in memory of some deed, or event, or in token of some marked feature of body or mind.

Note On Mother-names The Peoples Of Middle-Earth

The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, a Father-name and a Mother-name. Mother-names were given later, often some years later, but also sometimes soon after birth.

Epesse 'After-name' a nickname not necessarily given by kin and mostly given as a title of admiration or honour. Later some among the Exiles gave themselves names, as disguises or in reference to their own deeds and personal history: such names were called cilmessi 'self-names'. The true names remained the Father and Mother-names it seems, according to this account.

This description seems to be about naming with respect to the Eldar in Valinor, noting also that the cilmesse here does not seem to be identical with the Chosen-names of Noldorin Elf-children.

12-09-2009, 04:41 PM	#1
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	Don't forget Breelander humans, they had last names too. (And when I'm personally meddling with M-E in my RPGs, I made Haradians have last names too, just for interest... ) I would like to point out, however, that (if I'm correct) last names as we know them is a fairly recent thing in the western world. Nobility had their family names (but there's in M-E the house of this and that to represent the same thing) but normal people, especially peasants, had no last names. If they needed more names than their own, they could use their father's name (like we could say for example Frodo son of Drogo) or their place of origin (Frodo from Hobbiton) or nicknames like Legate mentioned above. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

12-09-2009, 05:04 PM	#2
Ibrîniðilpathânezel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the Helcaraxe Posts: 733	We do know from the HoME books that Aragorn used the surname "Arathornsson" in a letter he sent to Sam (if I'm recalling correctly) during his reign. Given that and the fact that in the LotR, he called himself "Aragorn, son of Arathorn," I would suspect that what surnames existed among the Dunedain and possibly the Rohirrim followed that general pattern. Tolkien may have said more about it in his letters, but no specific mention comes to mind at the moment. I shall have to look. (After supper. The tummy is growling....) __________________ Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill

12-09-2009, 09:07 PM	#6
Morthoron Curmudgeonly Wordwraith Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits Posts: 2,515	Among Elves and Dwarves last names are honorific titles, like Thorin Oakenshield or Finrod Felagund, and are not passed down generationally like among the anachronistic Hobbits and Bree men. __________________ And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision.

12-10-2009, 07:07 AM	#8
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	A lot of this of course is Tolkien's technique of 'calquing:' the Shire (and Bree) are intended to have the feel of relatively modern England, whereas the other cultures are more archaic. The Anglo-Saxons has no surnames! A formation like Harold Godwinson was a cognomen, a descriptive epithet, used to distinguish him from other Harolds (and to remind folks that he was the son of the great Earl Godwin). Likewise, 'Frealaf Hildeson' appears as a tip that Frealaf was not in the direct male line, but Helm's nephew by his sister Hilde. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

12-09-2009, 08:44 PM	#5
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Interesting line from Aragorn... 'But Strider shall be the name of my house, if that be ever established. In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Telcontar I will be and all the heirs of my body.'

12-10-2009, 03:56 AM	#7
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Hobbits were very keen on keeping track of their ancestors and relatives. They had to be; their's was a society in which your status depended on who you were related to rather than your abilities or achievements. Having family names (surnames) helped everyone to know their place (and be kept in their place) in the Hobbit hierarchy. In other societies it was easier to know your place; you were either the King or you weren't. . .

12-10-2009, 10:32 AM	#9
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Isn't Legolas' last name Greenleaf? For those of you without The History of Middle-Earth series, or for those of you who don't care and desire a sleep-aid, below are some points concerning certain Elves and naming customs. I have underlined certain terms for no real reason. There are basically two accounts and I'm not sure if the account from The Peoples of Middle-Earth is supposed to supersede the one from Morgoth's Ring or not. My guess is they can be somewhat merged however (I note for example: 'In which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar' with respect to the Chosen-name). Anyway... Of Naming Morgoth's Ring The description begins with respect to the naming of Children among the Noldor. Father-name -- it was the right of the father to devise this first name. It remained unaltered save for such changes as might befall its spoken form in the passing of the long years (even the tongues of the Eldar were subject to change). It is said that in the early days of the Eldar '... it was then still the custom for the father-name of a son to be a modification of the father's name (as Finwe/ Curufinwe) or a patronymic (as Finwion 'son of Finwe'). The father-name of a daughter would likewise often be derived from the name of the mother.' Chosen-name -- in which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar. It is said here that the Elf-child had the right to name himself or herslf. The ceremony of 'Name-choosing' could not take place before the child was deemed ready and capable of lámatyáve, as the Noldor called it: that is, of individal pleasure in the sounds and forms of words. In elder times the Chosen-name or second name was usually freshly devised. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence '...it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.' The 'true-names' are here said to be the Father-name and Chosen-name, and the Chosen-names were said to be regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property. New chosen names could be added. Anessi 'given or added names'. Here we have the Mother-name, a name of insight or of foresight. A Mother-name was given in the hour of birth or on some other occasion of moment, indicating some dominant feature of the Elf-child's nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. When solemnly given a Mother-name could also be regarded as a true name and was sometimes placed immediately after the Father-name. Mother-names of insight in general use sometimes replaced the Father-name and Chosen-name, however the Father-name and the Chosen-name (among those that had the custom of essecilme that is) remained ever the true or primary name, and a necessary part of any full title. Other Given-names were not considered true names, and names or nicknames of this kind might be given by anyone... in memory of some deed, or event, or in token of some marked feature of body or mind. Note On Mother-names The Peoples Of Middle-Earth The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, a Father-name and a Mother-name. Mother-names were given later, often some years later, but also sometimes soon after birth. Epesse 'After-name' a nickname not necessarily given by kin and mostly given as a title of admiration or honour. Later some among the Exiles gave themselves names, as disguises or in reference to their own deeds and personal history: such names were called cilmessi 'self-names'. The true names remained the Father and Mother-names it seems, according to this account. This description seems to be about naming with respect to the Eldar in Valinor, noting also that the cilmesse here does not seem to be identical with the Chosen-names of Noldorin Elf-children.