The Rohirrim, why horses?

[Rumil]

Evening all,

Some good points made on this thread already, just a few more comments-

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC. By the way its a great place to have a look at on a sunny day, and Wayland's Forge (a proper Barrow on the Downs) is just round the corner.

The Eotheod, it's been said, seem to be like Goths, known for their horsemanship, and leading an unsettled, nearly nomadic lifestyle, following the herds. The Rohirrim have settled down a bit, building towns and putting down roots but some still have a nomadic life, following the herds across the green plains. This is a deliberate development by JRRT, and the names change from more Goth-y to more 'Anglo-Saxon' over their history.

As said, the Rohirrim had no reason to lose their horse-addiction, in fact they moved from an area in the Upper Anduin that was likely OK horse country down to Rohan that was excellent horse country - so no reason to change. The Anglo Saxons seem to have been coastal people and anyway had to invade Britain by boat, so horses not so culturally important I expect. This doesn't mean that the English never used horses, they had lots of them I'm sure. For a long time it was thought that the English never used horses in battle (eg Hastings) but this is not so clear-cut nowadays. A lot of evidence points to the Northumbrians using mounted warriors (eg carvings etc).

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Rumil

As said, the Rohirrim had no reason to lose their horse-addiction, in fact they moved from an area in the Upper Anduin that was likely OK horse country down to Rohan that was excellent horse country - so no reason to change.

Maybe this comes from MERP, but I can't get it out of my head that when the Eotheod lived East of Mirkwood, they were called the Eothraim? Anyway, the rolling plains that stretch from Erebor to Rhun would certainly be conducive to a nomadic horse-culture. This being said, the Upper Vales are significantly different. The area near Framsburg was colder than the eastern plains and was comprised of hills and undulating lowlands. Rohirric culture, with its holds (Edoras, Helm's Deep, and Dunharrow), seems to be an amalgamation of the old nomadic culture of the East and the more sedentary hill-dwelling culture of the Upper Vales.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rumil

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC.

You're right, of course, but don't tell G.K. Chesterton! In other words, archeological knowledge is one thing, folk tradition another, and I think I can see our Prof paying hommage to the latter whether or not he was aware of the former. To quote from the site I linked to in my earlier post:

Traditionally the horse is attributed to a number of famous figures, one of these is King Alfred, who is said to have had it constructed to commemorate his victory over the Danes in 871. The horse is also said to been cut by Hengist, the leader of the Anglo Saxon horde in the 5th century AD.

[Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

You're right, of course, but don't tell G.K. Chesterton!

Chesterton knew it was pre-Anglo-Saxon. In the Ballad of the White Horse, when he plays the harp among the Danes, Alfred says:

"All things achieved and chosen pass,
As the White Horse fades in the grass,
No work of Christian men.

“Ere the sad gods that made your gods
Saw their sad sunrise pass,
The White Horse of the White Horse Vale,
That you have left to darken and fail,
Was cut out of the grass."

So yeah, he knew it was really really old.

Your point about tradition vs. history is right, of course. But I just read The Ballad of the White Horse so I had to comment.

[Pitchwife]

I stand corrected, Erchamion (and welcome to the Downs!). Yes, he knew, but he still paid hommage to the tradition that links the Horse with Alfred's victory - probably agreeing with the point shadowfax made above, that symbols belong to those who care for them, whatever their origin.

[Bêthberry]

Tom Shippey's Road to Middle-earth does indeed posit an explanation for the presence of horses in The Mark.

Shippey argues that Tolkien is 'calquing' (a word from Tolkien's professional study of philology).

Originally Posted by Shippey

A part of the answer is that the Rohirrim are not to be equated with the Anglo-Saxons of history, but with those of poetry, or legend.

At some length Shippey discusses the similarities between "The King of the Golden Hall" and the Old English poem Beowulf, to say nothing of the similarities between Aragon's song and the Old English poem The Wanderer.

Originally Posted by Shippey

However, Tolkien was trying to go beyond translation to 'reconstruction.' And this is what explains the horses. The feeling of Anglo-Saxon poetry for these was markedly different from that of Anglo-Saxon history. Thus the retainers of Beowulf joyfully race their mearas back from the monsters' lake as they singe their praise songs. . . . Maybe the infantry-fixation of historical periods was the result of living on an island. Maybe the Anglo-Saxons before they migrated to England were different. What would have happened had they turned East, not West, to the German plains and the steppes beyond?

It's a fascinating argument in part because it employs the same technique that Tolkien employed to develop his languages.

[Erchamion]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(and welcome to the Downs!).

Thanks!

Yes, he knew, but he still paid hommage to the tradition that links the Horse with Alfred's victory - probably agreeing with the point shadowfax made above, that symbols belong to those who care for them, whatever their origin.

Very much so.

(It's interesting how Chesterton manages to 'have it both ways'. Certainly it gets used as a symbol of Alfred's victory - "the White Horse stamps in the White Horse Vale" and all that - but the poem also makes a point of it being pre-Christian; Alfred uses that as part of his condemnation of the Danes:

"The White Horse of the White Horse Vale,
That you have left to darken and fail,
Was cut out of the grass.

Therefore your end is on you,
Is on you and your kings,
Not for a fire in Ely fen,
Not that your gods are nine or ten,
But because it is only Christian men
Guard even heathen things." )

[Lastande Took]

I considered the horses of Rohan to be part of the "freedom-loving self-sufficent mighty warrior" kind of thing. Also horses, once part of a culture, do not leave easily. Horses represent speed, independence, and, to an extent, military superiority. A soldier on horseback has a huge advantage over a soldier fighting on foot.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lastande Took

A soldier on horseback has a huge advantage over a soldier fighting on foot.

Amusingly, that was not always the case in Middle-earth (and certainly not the case for the flower of French chivalry at Crecy and Poitiers). For instance, the Numenorean infantry was the most formidable force of the 2nd Age. Sauron's legions folded up their tents and headed for the mountains at the very sight of them.

[shadowfax]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Evening all,

Some good points made on this thread already, just a few more comments-

The Uffington White Horse doesn't belong to the English, it's Celtic or more likely pre-Celtic, estimated as going back to 1000BC. By the way its a great place to have a look at on a sunny day, and Wayland's Forge (a proper Barrow on the Downs) is just round the corner.

Yes sure, but in those days, people often identified with the land they occupied and one of the reasons they built barrows was to use their dead to show that they had occupied that particular area of land for a very long time. To some extenet they also cheated by "adopting" barrows etc that previous civilisations had left behind. hence obvious similarities between Anglo-Saxon burial mounds and bronze age barrows.

Although the White Horse at Uffington goes back thousands of years and is probably pre-Celtic, it would never have survived if not look after by local people. The chalk is soft and the grass grows quickly and in less than a lifetime there would be no visible remains left if ever peopel stopped looking after it. Hence we know that every single people or culture that occupied the area cared for and hence identified with the White Horse.

It is thus entirely fair to say that the White Horse was an Anglo Saxon symbol, just as it is right to say it was a Celtic or a pre-Celtic symbol. In Reading museum there is actually a bronze trinket that somebody must have worn around their neck. Guess who made it? The Romans. Guess what it depicts? The White Horse of Uffington.

[Dakêsîntrah]

[There is some archaeological evidence of a 'horse tribe' in England long before the Norman conquest]

I had always envisioned the Rohirrim as likened unto the Sarmatian horse people. The Romano-Britons were also very much like this, horse-people, who patterned much of their combat style after the Roman cavalry in Britain.