Battles in the North

[Rumil]

Hi Rhugga,

nice thread, this aspect has fascinated me too (any year now I'll get back to 'Battles of the Late Third Age' - possibly) .

Fonstad's pretty good I think, but she's interpretation not canon! I suppose the only real information is in the Appendices of LoTR - I've not heard report of anything relevant in HoME?

IIRC there was a battle at the Fords of the Celduin. (Am I mis-remembering this? I think I need to re-read!). Then the Dale-men retreated to Dale, were defeated and holed up in Erebor.

The men of Dale ruled a wide land eastwards to the Celduin. Was Esgaroth independent or under the King of Dale by this stage?

Esgaroth was probably fairly secure against the Easterlings in the short term, with its famous easily-defended causeway (disregarding dragons of course!). On the other hand Erebor was no easy target! Maybe the Easterlings were motivated by the legendary gold and jools of the Lonely Mountain?

Thranduil, hmm tricky - could be he indeed took 20 days to get to Mid-Mirkwood, presumably pursuing orcs and fell beasts and despatching spiders etc. We know it was VERY tangled, and Bilbo & co. took ages and ages to cross the forest even with the aid of the elf path.

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Fonstad's pretty good I think, but she's interpretation not canon!

Sloppy construction on my part. But I know what you mean, Mirkwood is hard to navigate. If the army that fought against Thranduil did indeed issue from Dol Guldur, then Fonstad's route which remains mostly West of Southern Mirkwood before entering the forest closer to Thranduil's realm would make sense. However, this a long haul. First, would they be harried by Woodmen and Beornings? Also, given the speed of the army from Minas Morgul, a battle fought close the Elven Kings Halls would take at least 23 days to reach. This seems a bit ridiculous, and I don't wonder if Thranduil didn't issue forth from his Halls sometime before the 15th of March and met the Enemy's forces somewhere farther away, maybe in the middle of Mirkwood (if you go for an alternative route for the forces from Dol Guldur) or perhaps on its edge?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Thranduil, hmm tricky - could be he indeed took 20 days to get to Mid-Mirkwood, presumably pursuing orcs and fell beasts and despatching spiders etc. We know it was VERY tangled, and Bilbo & co. took ages and ages to cross the forest even with the aid of the elf path.

Rumil,

Perhaps my D&D and film memories are salient in my head, but I was always under the impression that terrain, in and of itself, presented no problem to the elves.

That would give the elves a great advantage over the orcs, and give them some parity with the spiders of Mirkwood. As for Fell Beasts, I would imagine those creatures staying out of arrow range.

[Rumil]

Hi Andsigil,

I agree that Thranduil's wood elves were likely top-notch at travelling and navigating through Mirkwood. However a thick wood must slow anyone down, in comaprison with travelling a flat plain.

Interestingly Legolas mentions that in the attack that freed Gollum, the orcs were new to the forest and unskilled in woodcraft (iirc), this at least implies that they occasionally encountered more wood-crafty orcs. This ties in nicely with Galadriel complaining that Dol Guldur had been re-inorced sevenfold since the days of The Hobbit.

Rhugga, intersting, I must get round to re-reading properly before a considered reply!

[Rhugga II]

The last thing I will mention is that Celeborn must move with great speed. Indeed, in the same day he crossed the Anduin and began the destruction of Dol Guldur. From the Eastern border of Lothlorien to the Anduin to the Tower of Sorcery it almost 120 miles. An incredible feat.