orcs and goblins- what's the difference???

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Galin

Gimli says 'goblins' in Lothlorien (the chapter) for example (and Gamling uses 'goblin-men'), but why should the reader not think that this translates Westron orc (or whatever the plural)?

Regarding what you've suggested above, I'm not sure how it could be supported by the examples -- but anyway, as you agree that orc is Westron, your idea implies the notion that there is some other unknown Westron word Frodo is really using, which is being translated by English 'goblin'...

... but Tolkien explains 'goblin' has been used to translate orc.

I'm not saying that "goblin" does not mean "orc", only that as a translator, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" earlier on, and the further we go, the further we (and Frodo, who is writing the book) get into Middle Earth, so Tolkien uses the original word.

The Lothlorien thing is still in the FOTR, and maybe Gamling saying "goblin" there is meant to show Rohirric superstition (remember that they're afraid of Pukel-men, which means goblin-men), as well as his fear at the time, connecting this huge attack on the fortress with ancient tales of huge attacks on fortresses. Anyway, I think that in the Two Towers, that is the only mention of goblins by any non-hobbit, and I don't think it is ever mentioned in ROTK.

But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong:

Originally Posted by LOTR, TT, Helm's Deep

'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'

However, it may show that he was just emphasising his point by using both, in which case there were in fact two different words, which complicates matters even further.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong:

However, it may show that he was just emphasising his point by using both, in which case there were in fact two different words

No– even if "orc" and "goblin" are interchangeable, it still doesn't follow that "half-orcs" and "goblin-men" must be the same thing (and thus that "goblin-men" is redundant)– it might refer to beings who differed in their amount of Orcish vs human blood or characteristics.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I'm not saying that "goblin" does not mean "orc", only that as a translator, Tolkien uses the word "goblin" earlier on, and the further we go, the further we (and Frodo, who is writing the book) get into Middle Earth, so Tolkien uses the original word.

OK but your suggestion appears to be that Frodo, as writer, employs a word that denotes these creatures 'as creatures of legend which the Hobbits know only from stories' (as you say) -- with the implication that this is something which orc does not do.

Frodo using an original word other than orc is not impossible as a general theory, but the note to The Hobbit tells us the original word that 'goblin' translates is orc itself, being the Common Speech word the Hobbits used at the time.

If orc has been usually translated by 'goblin' in The Hobbit, but has been, in theory, 'retained' (though not in every instance) in The Lord of the Rings, then hasn't the reader essentially been told that the original word used throughout the tale is really orc? When one sees 'Sam' we know Frodo wrote Ban; and when one sees 'goblin' we know Frodo wrote orc.



Or if Tolkien as translator is doing as you suggest -- despite that Frodo used orc in the original let's say -- one has to contend with the appearances of orc early on in the tale. Orc is used early on in The Lord of the Rings (Frodo uses it 'in speech' in The Shadow of the Past for example). How are the examples, including the number of examples, of orc versus 'goblin' as they appear in the early parts of the tale supporting your idea?

But actually, the particular passage you referred to may suggest that there is a difference between orcs and goblins, so perhaps we were wrong: 'But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun,'

I would employ the idea of translation here set out by Tolkien, and so I imagine 'goblin-men' has been fully translated (whatever Gamling means by it), in this case perhaps simply due to the translator's preference for the flow of the sentence, but in any event: English 'goblin-men' substituted for an original Westron word.

(maybe *orkil could mean 'goblin-man'? total speculation! and probably wrong, but loosely based on Banakil, Tarkil at least)