‘Strains of Elvish Song and Voices', Bradford Lee Eden

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, Pitchwife. I was a bit worried that it would be too spirited but I'm glad you enjoyed it. And gladder that you have replied with such interesting content.

While you are right that Morris could be called a fictionist, my problem with that term was how Eden uses it generally to refer always to the three of Tennyson, Swinburne and Morris. He seems to want to yoke them together when they don't all fit that description, which was my point. I think it would be a better essay had the author differentiated a bit among his three Victorians. Also, the examples Eden supplies of Morris' writing are all from the poetry, so that also sits a bit awkwardly with the descriptor 'fictionist'. Probably too I would be happier with your 'prose romance', which I think is closer to what Morris was doing than 'fictionist.'

You might be surprised to know that you have in your reply here provided more evidence of Morris's influence on Tolkien than Eden supplies in the essay. The one little footnote he supplies on Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien doesn't even mention Morris (although Morris is the only one of these three presented in that book). I know of Morris' influence, but my point is about the method in this essay. At the very least there should be the quotes from the letters which your links supply. It seems that Eden thinks all he needs to do is quote some lines with similar themes and that proves influence. And, in fact, he quotes only from Tennyson, Swinburne and Tolkien in his opening and doesn't even mention Morris as one of his chosen three Victorian fictionists until the fourth paragraph.

Maybe mewlings applies most to Tennyson. I saw Morris' Kelmscott Chaucer when I was in Ottawa last month and it is a beautiful work of art. It is not a medieval work of course, because the style is different--no medieval book I've ever seen had that much illustration--but as a faithful rendition of beauty in book form it is stunning.

One of the points, too, that I wished Eden had considered is why the later accounts don't have the strong references to music which the earlier versions do. Was Tolkien working against the Victorian medievalism Eden tries to prove--or was that part of the effect of Christopher Tolkien's editing?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

One of the points, too, that I wished Eden had considered is why the later accounts don't have the strong references to music which the earlier versions do. Was Tolkien working against the Victorian medievalism Eden tries to prove--or was that part of the effect of Christopher Tolkien's editing?

I don't see how it could be the latter. Christopher Tolkien's approach throughout HoMe is scholarly and analytical; where the texts are subjected to editing the alterations are always minor, and whenever he does not give a text in full, he gives a precis of the abridged content. Indeed, if anything, the tendency in the later volumes is toward less abridgement than in the earlier ones.

I think, rather, it's a matter of Tolkien's taste and style changing. I do think that the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR.

This thread made me curious, so I looked for references to Morris, Swinburne, and Tennyson in Letters. There are two references to Morris. The first is from the very first letter in the collection, to Edith in October 1914:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Amongst other work I am trying to turn one of the stories [from the Kalevala] - which is really a very great story and most tragic - into a short story somewhat on the lines of Morris' romances with chunks of poetry in between . . .

This, of course, was the ultimate germ of the story of Turin. The other reference is from letter 226, of 31 December 1960, to Professor L.W. Forster. After Tolkien denies any influence of World War II upon the plot of LotR, he says:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme. They owe more to William Morris and his Huns and Romans, as in The Houses of the Wolfings or The Roots of the Mountains.

There are no references to Swinburne or Tennyson.

On the subject of Victorian Romanticism in Tolkien, though, one must also consider George MacDonald, to whom there are several references in Letters. Indeed, in a 1938 letter to the editor of the 'Observer', Tolkien says that The Hobbit is:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

derived from (previously digested) epic, mythology, and fairy-story - not, however, Victorian in authorship, as a rule to which George Macdonald is the chief exception.

In a letter from 7 September 1964 to Michael di Capua (a publisher), he wrote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

I should like to write a short preface to a separate edition of The Golden Key. I am not as warm an admirer of George MacDonald as C.S. Lewis was; but I do think well of this story of his.

The other references to MacDonald relate to his use of the word 'goblin'.

I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning MacDonald and/or Morris in 'On Fairy Stories' as well, but I don't have it near at hand.

In any case, I would say that if one is to go by Tolkien's own comments on the subject, the only significant influences on him from among the Victorian Romanticists were Morris and MacDonald.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks, Aiwendil. I've misplaced my copy of the Letters and so couldn't check them.

There are no references to Morris that I could find in a quick perusal of OFS. There are, however, three comments about MacDonald.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

None the less this detail is plainly only a secondary use of an ancient and very widespread folk-lore notion, which does occur in fairy-stories; the notion that the life or strength of a man or creature may reside in some other place or thing; or ins ome part of th ebody (especially the heart) that can be detached and hidden in a bag, or under a stone, or in an egg. At one end of recorded folk-lore history this idea was used by George MacDonald in his fairy story The Giant's Heart, which derives this central motive (as well as many other details) from well-known traditional tales.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

The Magical, the fairy-story, may be used as a Mirour de l'Omme; and it may (but not so easily) be made a vehicle of Mystery. This is what George MacDonald attempted, achieving stories of power and beauty when he succeded, as in The Golden Key (which he called a fairy-tale): and even when he partly failed, as in Lilith (which he called a romance).

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

Death is the theme that most inspired George MacDonald.

In footnote 4, Eden remarks:

Originally Posted by Eden, p. 152

MacDonald's influence on Tolkien's writings can be specifically attributed to Tolkien's concept of children's literature, and especially the production of The Hobbit, but I can find no direct influence of MacDonald on Tolkien's early mythological writings.

[Faramir Jones]

Some very interesting comments on this article.

Bêthberry, you have a good point about the presentation of the article, including the use of the term 'fictionist', which is misleading, hence perhaps my quoting it only once. I fully understand your 'not trusting his use of language or his knowledge of the field'.

However, I would defend his reference to Tolkien as 'a classicist'. Tolkien did study Latin and Classical Greek in school, and won a scholarship to study such languages in Exeter College. While he later transferred to English, winning a First Class Honours, he was appreciative of his classical training. In his Letters, he said, 'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer'. (Letters, Letter 213.)

In terms of your comments on the author's other essay, "The Music of the Spheres", I haven't read it, so won't comment on it.

While I agree completely that Tolkien took the term 'Middle-earth' from Ceadmon's Hymn, your term 'Victorian hit parade' is unfair on those three writers and their works. While Eden presented them badly, they have survived such bad presentations and worse...

I think that those of us who have commented so far agree about the significance of William Morris's influence on Tolkien, confirmed by the references in his Letters, quoted by Aiwendil. There are also the references to George McDonald, in particular in On Fairy Stories.

I have to say that while there are no references to Tennyson in the Letters, it was pointed out to me (so I can claim no credit!) that there are a lot of similarities between Bilbo's Last Song:

http://blue.carisenda.com/archives/j...last_song.html

and Tennyson's famous 1889 poem, Crossing the Bar, traditionally used as the last poem in collections of his work:

http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/2045-Alfr...ossing-the-Bar

I agree with you, Aiwendil, about Tolkien's style and taste changing, and your view that

the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR.

In one of his letters, Tolkien described his writing style in LotR. He gave a particular passage, and he then gave two different versions of it, one in medieval English and the other in modern English. He used this example to show that he aimed for a 'moderate or watered archaism'. (Letters, Letter 171)

My own view is that it was not just a matter of his changing style and taste; it was also a way of making it comprehensible to modern readers, who might otherwise dismiss it as a 'Victorian throwback' to Morris.

[Bêthberry]

Good to see some extensive disucssion going on on the Downs! We have Music in Middle-earth to thank for that!

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

However, I would defend his reference to Tolkien as 'a classicist'. Tolkien did study Latin and Classical Greek in school, and won a scholarship to study such languages in Exeter College. While he later transferred to English, winning a First Class Honours, he was appreciative of his classical training. In his Letters, he said, 'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer'. (Letters, Letter 213.)

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I said in my original post here, Tolkien did have training in Greek and Latin, but he left the classical world for English and philology. He was not an authority on the classics as he was in philology and medievalism and that is how Eden was attempting to portray Tolkien. It was, I suggest, evidence of imprecise vocabulary attempting to prove a point that could have more precisely and accurately been explained otherwise.

While I agree completely that Tolkien took the term 'Middle-earth' from Ceadmon's Hymn,

My reference to Caedmon was also intended to demonstrate that Tolkien's knowledge of the oral tradition was not limited to, in Eden's words, "the trouvere/troubadour tradition in medieval music" (p. 60). And that, "Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners" ( Eden, p. 60) applies as well to Old English, a language and a literature Eden never mentions, although he does mention the Finnish Kalevala and Icelandic sagas.

your term 'Victorian hit parade' is unfair on those three writers and their works. While Eden presented them badly, they have survived such bad presentations and worse...

Oh, I think the Victorian poets are quite safe from my sarcasm, which was directed at Eden's approach and method.

I have to say that while there are no references to Tennyson in the Letters, it was pointed out to me (so I can claim no credit!) that there are a lot of similarities between Bilbo's Last Song:

http://blue.carisenda.com/archives/j...last_song.html

and Tennyson's famous 1889 poem, Crossing the Bar, traditionally used as the last poem in collections of his work:

http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/2045-Alfr...ossing-the-Bar

Bilbo's Last Song is not in my copy of LotR. Nor, I believe, has it ever been included in an edition of LotR. It was written some time after LotR was published and quite a few decades after the early writings which Eden quotes.

What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?

[Faramir Jones]

You're right about the extensive discussion, Bêthberry!

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I said in my original post here, Tolkien did have training in Greek and Latin, but he left the classical world for English and philology. He was not an authority on the classics as he was in philology and medievalism and that is how Eden was attempting to portray Tolkien. It was, I suggest, evidence of imprecise vocabulary attempting to prove a point that could have more precisely and accurately been explained otherwise.

I agree that he was not an authority on the classics as he was on philology and medievalism, nor would he ever have claimed to be or be seen as such by others. In that context, Eden was misleading.

I would, however, regard Tolkien as a classicist by upbringing, even if he did not practice as an expert. The influence of his classical upbringing can be seen in his works, such as in the portrayal of the Valar, who are as much inspired by the Graeco-Roman gods as by the Norse ones.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My reference to Caedmon was also intended to demonstrate that Tolkien's knowledge of the oral tradition was not limited to, in Eden's words, "the trouvere/troubadour tradition in medieval music" (p. 60). And that, "Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners" ( Eden, p. 60) applies as well to Old English, a language and a literature Eden never mentions, although he does mention the Finnish Kalevala and Icelandic sagas.

I fully agree that he left these things out.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Bilbo's Last Song is not in my copy of LotR. Nor, I believe, has it ever been included in an edition of LotR. It was written some time after LotR was published and quite a few decades after the early writings which Eden quotes.

What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?

While it is separate from LotR, it's obviously supposed to be a last poem by Bilbo before his departure from Middle-earth at the end of that book, presumably sung or recited at the Gray Havens.

According to Schull and Hammond's Reader's Guide, the poem was given by Tolkien to his secretary, Joy Hill, on 3 September 1970, and first published in 1974. Schull and Hammond say that the 'content and mood' of the poem 'call to mind' Tennyson's 'Crossing the Bar'. (Reader's Guide, p. 107) I therefore claim absolutely no credit for this comparison between the two poems, which has previously been made by many others.

In terms of what is going on here between the two poems, this is my opinion:

Similarities:

1. Both deal with a journey over a sea, with death involved. Tennyson is dealing with a journey after his death, while Bilbo is dealing with one that will take him to the Undying Lands, where he will shortly after die, due both to his great age, and such lands not being suitable for mortals to live in long.

2. Both are dealing with a journey through time and space. Tennyson speaks of travelling 'out our bourn [boundary] of Time and Place' (Line 13), while Bilbo, as we know, is going to the Undying Lands, which have been set apart from Arda since the end of the Second Age, saying 'lands there are to west of West,/ where night is quiet and sleep is rest'. (Lines 15-16)

2. The imagery of the Evening Star, whom we know is in Tolkien's universe Eärendil the Mariner, and of whom Bilbo wrote a poem in LotR, appears in both poems. Tennyson's poem starts with the line, 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo's finishing with 'I see the Star above my mast!', as well as mentioning in line 17 that he is 'Guided by the Lonely Star'.

3. The image of the sun setting, which starts both poems. Tennyson starts with 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo start with 'Day is ended, dim my eyes', and in line 6, he says, 'beyond the sunset leads my way'. In both poems, this is used as a metaphor for the narrators' lives drawing to an end. Tennyson also has a reference to twilight: 'Twilight and evening bell,/And after that the dark!' (Lines 9-10)

4. The image of the bar, which is in this context, according to The Oxford English Dictionary, 'A bank of sand, silt, etc., across the mouth of a river or harbour, which obstructs navigation'. Both poems speak of it as something important, both physical and metaphorical, to be crossed in their journeys. Tennyson's poem has crossing it as its title, hopes that 'there be no moaning of the bar,/When I put out to sea', (Lines 3-4) and ends with the hope that the narrator will 'see my Pilot [God] face to face/When I have crost the bar'. (Lines 15-16) Bilbo speaks of being guided by the Lonely Star 'beyond the utmost harbour-bar'. (Line 18)

5. The idea of the narrator being called to his voyage, both literal and metaphorical. Tennyson speaks of 'And one clear call for me!' (Line 2), while Bilbo speaks of 'Farewell, friends! I hear the call'. (Line 3)

6. Tennyson's poem was a late one, intended by him to appear as his last work, being included as such in collections of his poetry. (I myself have a copy of an 1899 edition of his poems, published seven years after his death, in which this is the case.)

Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s (Reader's Guide, p. 107), presumably written after LotR, but given to his secretary only a few years before his death, as already mentioned.

Differences:

Tennyson's poem has the narrator somewhat detached and passive, trying to comfort those he will leave behind: 'And may there be no sadness of farewell,/ When I embark;' (Lines 11-12) Bilbo, by contrast, is eager to be off on his voyage, with lines such as

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall. (Lines 3-4)

Farewell, friends! The sails are set,
the wind is east, the moorings fret. (Lines 9-10)

Ship, my ship! I seek the West,
and fields and mountains ever blest. (Lines 21-22)

While there are differences between the two poems, I feel that they are far outweighed by the similarities.

[Pitchwife]

Having looked up Tennyson's poem (thanks for the link!), I'd like to add just one little bit to Faramir's comparison of the two poems:
Tennyson hopes to see my Pilot face to face, which I agree is obviously a reference to God; Bilbo goes to see the Valar - not God but the gods, the officers of the ship, so to speak, i.e. the closest thing to God that can be found within the confines of Arda; and we have every reason to assume he will move on to see the true Pilot (captain?) shortly after.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s ....

If we know this to be true (do we?) then shouldn't we be discussing Vestr Um Haf? I'm impressed by the Tennyson poem, to be sure, but if the professor said he started with Vestr Um Haf (did he say that?) perhaps this discussion should go there.

Tolkien was pretty generous about what might have influenced him but that's different than a statement that something DID influence him.