![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
![]() |
#1 | |||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
I think, rather, it's a matter of Tolkien's taste and style changing. I do think that the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR. This thread made me curious, so I looked for references to Morris, Swinburne, and Tennyson in Letters. There are two references to Morris. The first is from the very first letter in the collection, to Edith in October 1914: Quote:
Quote:
On the subject of Victorian Romanticism in Tolkien, though, one must also consider George MacDonald, to whom there are several references in Letters. Indeed, in a 1938 letter to the editor of the 'Observer', Tolkien says that The Hobbit is: Quote:
Quote:
I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning MacDonald and/or Morris in 'On Fairy Stories' as well, but I don't have it near at hand. In any case, I would say that if one is to go by Tolkien's own comments on the subject, the only significant influences on him from among the Victorian Romanticists were Morris and MacDonald. |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Thanks, Aiwendil. I've misplaced my copy of the Letters and so couldn't check them.
There are no references to Morris that I could find in a quick perusal of OFS. There are, however, three comments about MacDonald. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Some very interesting comments on this article.
Bęthberry, you have a good point about the presentation of the article, including the use of the term 'fictionist', which is misleading, hence perhaps my quoting it only once. ![]() However, I would defend his reference to Tolkien as 'a classicist'. Tolkien did study Latin and Classical Greek in school, and won a scholarship to study such languages in Exeter College. While he later transferred to English, winning a First Class Honours, he was appreciative of his classical training. In his Letters, he said, 'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer'. (Letters, Letter 213.) In terms of your comments on the author's other essay, "The Music of the Spheres", I haven't read it, so won't comment on it. While I agree completely that Tolkien took the term 'Middle-earth' from Ceadmon's Hymn, your term 'Victorian hit parade' is unfair on those three writers and their works. While Eden presented them badly, they have survived such bad presentations and worse... ![]() I think that those of us who have commented so far agree about the significance of William Morris's influence on Tolkien, confirmed by the references in his Letters, quoted by Aiwendil. There are also the references to George McDonald, in particular in On Fairy Stories. I have to say that while there are no references to Tennyson in the Letters, it was pointed out to me (so I can claim no credit!) that there are a lot of similarities between Bilbo's Last Song: http://blue.carisenda.com/archives/j...last_song.html and Tennyson's famous 1889 poem, Crossing the Bar, traditionally used as the last poem in collections of his work: http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/2045-Alfr...ossing-the-Bar I agree with you, Aiwendil, about Tolkien's style and taste changing, and your view that the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR. In one of his letters, Tolkien described his writing style in LotR. He gave a particular passage, and he then gave two different versions of it, one in medieval English and the other in modern English. He used this example to show that he aimed for a 'moderate or watered archaism'. (Letters, Letter 171) My own view is that it was not just a matter of his changing style and taste; it was also a way of making it comprehensible to modern readers, who might otherwise dismiss it as a 'Victorian throwback' to Morris. Last edited by Faramir Jones; 03-04-2010 at 02:37 PM. Reason: I needed to delete something |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Good to see some extensive disucssion going on on the Downs! We have Music in Middle-earth to thank for that!
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
![]() Quote:
What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
You're right about the extensive discussion, Bęthberry!
![]() Quote:
I would, however, regard Tolkien as a classicist by upbringing, even if he did not practice as an expert. The influence of his classical upbringing can be seen in his works, such as in the portrayal of the Valar, who are as much inspired by the Graeco-Roman gods as by the Norse ones. Quote:
![]() Quote:
According to Schull and Hammond's Reader's Guide, the poem was given by Tolkien to his secretary, Joy Hill, on 3 September 1970, and first published in 1974. Schull and Hammond say that the 'content and mood' of the poem 'call to mind' Tennyson's 'Crossing the Bar'. (Reader's Guide, p. 107) I therefore claim absolutely no credit for this comparison between the two poems, which has previously been made by many others. ![]() In terms of what is going on here between the two poems, this is my opinion: Similarities: 1. Both deal with a journey over a sea, with death involved. Tennyson is dealing with a journey after his death, while Bilbo is dealing with one that will take him to the Undying Lands, where he will shortly after die, due both to his great age, and such lands not being suitable for mortals to live in long. 2. Both are dealing with a journey through time and space. Tennyson speaks of travelling 'out our bourn [boundary] of Time and Place' (Line 13), while Bilbo, as we know, is going to the Undying Lands, which have been set apart from Arda since the end of the Second Age, saying 'lands there are to west of West,/ where night is quiet and sleep is rest'. (Lines 15-16) 2. The imagery of the Evening Star, whom we know is in Tolkien's universe Eärendil the Mariner, and of whom Bilbo wrote a poem in LotR, appears in both poems. Tennyson's poem starts with the line, 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo's finishing with 'I see the Star above my mast!', as well as mentioning in line 17 that he is 'Guided by the Lonely Star'. 3. The image of the sun setting, which starts both poems. Tennyson starts with 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo start with 'Day is ended, dim my eyes', and in line 6, he says, 'beyond the sunset leads my way'. In both poems, this is used as a metaphor for the narrators' lives drawing to an end. Tennyson also has a reference to twilight: 'Twilight and evening bell,/And after that the dark!' (Lines 9-10) 4. The image of the bar, which is in this context, according to The Oxford English Dictionary, 'A bank of sand, silt, etc., across the mouth of a river or harbour, which obstructs navigation'. Both poems speak of it as something important, both physical and metaphorical, to be crossed in their journeys. Tennyson's poem has crossing it as its title, hopes that 'there be no moaning of the bar,/When I put out to sea', (Lines 3-4) and ends with the hope that the narrator will 'see my Pilot [God] face to face/When I have crost the bar'. (Lines 15-16) Bilbo speaks of being guided by the Lonely Star 'beyond the utmost harbour-bar'. (Line 18) 5. The idea of the narrator being called to his voyage, both literal and metaphorical. Tennyson speaks of 'And one clear call for me!' (Line 2), while Bilbo speaks of 'Farewell, friends! I hear the call'. (Line 3) 6. Tennyson's poem was a late one, intended by him to appear as his last work, being included as such in collections of his poetry. (I myself have a copy of an 1899 edition of his poems, published seven years after his death, in which this is the case.) Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s (Reader's Guide, p. 107), presumably written after LotR, but given to his secretary only a few years before his death, as already mentioned. Differences: Tennyson's poem has the narrator somewhat detached and passive, trying to comfort those he will leave behind: 'And may there be no sadness of farewell,/ When I embark;' (Lines 11-12) Bilbo, by contrast, is eager to be off on his voyage, with lines such as Farewell, friends! I hear the call. The ship’s beside the stony wall. (Lines 3-4) Farewell, friends! The sails are set, the wind is east, the moorings fret. (Lines 9-10) Ship, my ship! I seek the West, and fields and mountains ever blest. (Lines 21-22) While there are differences between the two poems, I feel that they are far outweighed by the similarities. Last edited by Faramir Jones; 03-06-2010 at 11:49 AM. Reason: I needed to add a few things |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Having looked up Tennyson's poem (thanks for the link!), I'd like to add just one little bit to Faramir's comparison of the two poems:
Tennyson hopes to see my Pilot face to face, which I agree is obviously a reference to God; Bilbo goes to see the Valar - not God but the gods, the officers of the ship, so to speak, i.e. the closest thing to God that can be found within the confines of Arda; and we have every reason to assume he will move on to see the true Pilot (captain?) shortly after.
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Thanks for your contribution, Pitchwife!
Quote:
![]() He did talk in a draft of a letter of about September 1963 on what awaited Frodo and Bilbo at the end of their voyage: Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil. Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. (Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.) But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness....As for reward for his part, it is difficult to feel that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness', and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the fragments of which had so delighted him. (Letters, Letter 246, p. 328) |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
Quote:
Tolkien was pretty generous about what might have influenced him but that's different than a statement that something DID influence him.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Vestr Um Haf is unpublished, Helen. According to Scull & Hammond, it was written in the 1920s or 1930s long before Tolkien wrote the conclusion to LotR and only adapted much later. ( The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide, I, 110, 802,857; II, 107.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |