If Denethor hadn't committed suicide

[Erendis]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Gandalf, I think, tried to teach him this lesson in his wonderful "I also am a steward" speech, but Denethor's ears were stopped.

It is among the greatest moments of Gandalf in the entire trilogy,a part that shows how deeple hummble he is and gives a very nice lesson to everyone concerning our points towards life.

As for Denethor,although it was sad to see a man with such potential ending up like that due to his pride and narrowmindness,I have to admitt that I was not really bothered to see him dying,for by his actions,self-destruction seems inevitable. He had been given many chances,being favoured from Luck from his very birth,and still he messsed up all in the end because he did not accept to listen for once somebody else's advice.Unlike his "rival",who payed attention to councilors even when he became king by his own effort and could have overestimated himself and his position in the world.

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Erendis

In fact,don't you think Denethor and Aragorn make a symmetric couple?

As far as comparison goes, I would say that Theoden could be compared to Tuor (with a different ending) and Denethor to Túrin, only of course both are on a smaller, less dramatic (and tragic in Denethor's case) scale. However, they both get a message/guidance from the West (whether direct or indirect) and both react to it in different ways.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

His position as the shield of the West against Mordor had become so important to him that in the end, he seems to have regarded the whole War of the Ring as a personal pee-contest between himself and Sauron, the lord of the Dark Tower and the lord of the White. If he'd been able to accept that he was just one figure among many others in the great struggle (an important one, no doubt, but not crucial), a servant of a greater cause that could still prevail even if he himself failed, he could have forgiven himself and survive.

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

[Faramir Jones]

Some interesting points here, Inziladun!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Interesting way to characterise Denethor's perception of his struggle with Mordor. Did Sauron actually...void himself? Never mind. I don't want to know.
The Professor said, I think in one of the Letters, that Denethor had become too 'political'. He was opposed to Sauron not in a right / wrong or black / white way, but merely because Mordor stood in opposition to the state he served, Gondor. Denethor as a politician was not up to the strain of the War: lacking a moral imperative to resist Sauron, his unwillingness to listen to counsel, and his readiness to kill himself and leave his people leaderless in their darkest times seem to me even more explicable.

I was discussing with a friend whether Gondorian soldiers shouted abuse at the Witch-king and the rest of the Ringwraiths, asking when they were last sexually active. Also, whether they asked if Sauron had sexual organs and if he ever used them or if they were just there for decoration.

She made an excellent point that such things would probably not have happened; because Sauron was not the equivalent of Der Führer Adolf Hitler or German Emperor William II, but of Satan. She reminded me of the phrase 'Speak of the devil', which was derived from the medieval phrase 'Speak of the Devil and he doth appear'.

This was a prohibition against speaking directly about Satan or about evil in general. If one did, Satan might actually appear, with very serious consequences for the person who spoke his name. Certainly, Sauron was spoken of indirectly by Gondorians; and even Mordor was also referred to by euphemisms, such as 'Nameless Land' and 'yonder realm'.

To be fair about Denethor, he did have a moral imperative to resist Sauron: the fact that he was the ruler of Gondor and therefore had an obligation to defend his kingdom and his people. Tolkien talks a little about this in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales:

He [Denethor] was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desperate time. (Unfinished Tales, p. 408)

Previously, Tolkien pointed out that the effects on Saruman and Denethor of them using the Stones were different:

Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it, Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. (Ibid.)

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favour of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

That said, I agree that Denethor's refusal to continue to fight Sauron even if he so despaired - something which Boromir, for all his faults, would have done - in favor of killing himself, and his attempted murder of Faramir, was inexcusable and a gross breach of his duty as a ruler.

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power of the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor.

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done. How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Faramir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

One explanation for the difference between Faramir and his father, as well as his elder brother, can only be conjectured - Finduilas. We know too little about her to guess at her influence on her husband and sons, especially since she died while the latter were fairly young, but it is possible that Tolkien unconsciously thought of his own mother while writing about the characters. She died while he was young too, yet her influence on him was lasting and powerful. Tolkien once said that Faramir was the character closest to himself, so parallels, while speculative, are possible.

We know that Denethor changed in character after the death of his wife. It would be interesting to speculate on the course his life might have taken had she yet lived. Could there be parallels with Finwë/Míriel/Fëanor hidden in there?

[Faramir Jones]

Esty, I agree about the possibility of Faramir being particularly influenced by his mother, as Tolkien was by his, although Finduilas died when he was five, younger than Tolkien when his mother Mabel died, he being twelve at the time.

My view is that perhaps we also need to look at the posthumous influence of Faramir's mother on him via her family. Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth was his mother's brother, and the most prominent Gondorian after the Steward. Also, his mother and Imrahil had an elder sister, Ivriniel.

We know that Imrahil had four children, three sons and a daughter, the latter, Lothíriel, later marrying Éomer. So Faramir might have had a lot of influence from his mother's side of the family, to compensate him for the loss of his mother.

We should, of course, not leave out the possible influences of members of his father's family. Denethor, like Imrahil, was the youngest of three children, having two elder sisters. Did these paternal aunts have any influence on Faramir's upbringing?

Certainly it would have been interesting to have seen what might have happened had Finduilas not died when she did.

You wondered about possible parallels between Finwë/Míriel/Fëanor, which may be the case, although I believe that there are significant differences. Fëanor was an only and an incredibly gifted child of the marriage of Finwë and Míriel. After her death, he remarried Indis of the Vanyar, and had four children with her, two sons: Fingolfin and Finarfin, and two daughters: Findis and Irimë.

It appears that, due to the close relationship between Fëanor and his father, that he resented the latter's remarriage and his half-siblings, in particular his two half-brothers. Later, he accused Fingolfin of trying to alienate their father's affections, indeed once threatening him with violence. This sibling rivalry would, as we know, have bloody consequences.

By contrast, Denethor never remarried. There is no doubt that he loved Finduilas deeply, something we can presume his sons were well aware of. As Sarumian said, 'He [Denethor] also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt'. While I'm sure they, including Boromir, missed their mother, they grew up to be the men we meet in LofR.

Also, there is no trace of any sibling rivalry between Boromir and Faramir. While Tolkien called the former the 'bossy' elder brother, he did so in inverted commas. Perhaps this was a trace of their mother's influence, she telling Boromir (who was ten at her death) to take care of his younger brother. Faramir did not resent Boromir being the heir, and as we see, lamented his death.

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Do you think Denethor would not have fallen, if the Ring had been in his grasp? It was his son Faramir's for the taking, if he'd wanted it. Even knowing the dire situation of Gondor, Faramir refused the Ring. Denethor would have readily claimed it, with full knowledge that it was a product of Sauron's craft, just as Boromir would have done.

I think, Denethor would have fallen, had he gained the Ring as it would have happened with everyone in Middle Earth save for Bombadil. Moreover, the Ring influenced Denethor even without being possessed.Those people in Middle Earth who wielded power, who were attached to power were in danger as soon as they were able to find out what the Ring was. Denethor believed that the prophesy required the Ring to be brought to Gondor. I think, he decided at that point that he was chosen to save Gondor and destroy Sauron via using the Ring. He lost all hope after the Ring had gone to Mordor.

How do you explain the differences between Denethor and his younger son, except by painting Farmir as the wiser and clearer-hearted?

There are good posts about that and I would just like to add that Denethor underestimated Faramir probably because of their likelihood. My understanding is that Denethor was never happy with himself and that was the root of his troubles. For this reason he could think that other people, including his own father, Ecthelion, were also excessively critical about him; the feeling that could make him opinionated and cold, which, in turn, is an obvious disadvantage for a leader. Thorongil's success made it all evident; on the other hand after his wife's death Denethor could have got a feeling of guilt and persistent depression. With all respect to his father Faramir could develop an understanding that even a person of highest status and authority could be wrong about some matters. That made Faramir look for external guidance, thus he started listening to Gandalf and became quite independent-minded (there could also be some influence from the other members of his family as Estelyn Telcontar and Faramir Jones explained above). To sum up, it looks as if Denethor's spiritual constitution, very fragile initially, made him seek support in such things as his status, blood, knowledge, duties etc. His moral consistency was based on external devices. Faramir respected those ideas as well, but his spirit was based on internal principles. If Denethor's too political attitude means this, I would agree. At the same time Denethor was able to withstand lots of troubles, remaining a person of honor, but when his devices broke down, his mind collapsed.

But the Númenóreans as a people were well conscious of their standing as the 'High Men' of Middle-earth. Faramir himself was not immune from it:

Quote:
We...can scarce claim any longer the titile High. We are become Middle Men, of the twilight, but with memory of other things.

The Two Towers The Window On the West

I'd agree that Faramir was not immune of such consciousness, but the quote also shows him considering the idea of High Men as a question of attitude rather than 'blood'. He told Frodo there had been a shift in virtues, so even people of high blood, who had been the keepers of high Numenorean knowledge for ages, were no longer seeking for any other achievements but military success, having become similar to 'middle men'. It seems, Faramir and Denethor shared the view that being a High man didn't mean just the origin, but observing lore and fulfilling high duties; one who fails doing it lessens. But what Faramir had found out was that the course of thoughts and actions could make a lesser person (even a hobbit) 'high' – something Denethor would have never agree with. This can be an example of Faramir's independent mind while Denethor' moral integrity depended on some social concepts and prejudices.

I can't ascribe Denethor's failings solely to class pride. Even as a child, Faramir had the wisdom to know Gandalf was someone to be trusted and listened to. Denethor was not welcoming to Gandalf, perhaps because 'Thorongil', who he'd seen as a rival, had advocated trust in Gandalf to his father, Ecthelion. Allowing perceived threats to one's power and prestige to colour one's views of a councillor seems a pretty political mindset to me.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I was interested in what you said here,

Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.

Again, it was Denethor himself who, due to a matter of honor, sent his son on a suicidal mission with no military significance in that situation. The tragedy of Denethor was that as long as he followed his principles, he was inevitably drifting towards defeat.

[Faramir Jones]

I was interested in what you said here, Sarumian:

Originally Posted by Sarumian

Oh, he had a good excuse - he went mad.

Honestly, I can't totally agree with the idea that Denethor's motives were merely political and lacked of moral dimension. While he was moving towards tyranny under the influence of The Ring, he never reached that point actually and, it seems, was a leader respected by people of Condor. He also was able to raise two outstanding sons whose moral consistency is out of any doubt. Finally, had he been morally indifferent, Denethor would definitely have fallen like Saurian.

The problem of Denethor was, as it looks to me, his attitude - too local and too class-bound. That's why his morality was finally subjugated to the question of his social (and political) STATUS, something that lies in the realm of The Ring. The corrupting power the latter is not able to sweep away true differences but can deceive one's perception...

Yes, there is the probability that Denethor II was insane; but in the particular confusion of the siege of Minas Tirith, there was not the time to formally remove him as ruler and replace him with someone else, such as Imrahil.

I agree with you that Denethor II was respected by his people, including by his sons. While there was some grumbling at how he treated Faramir, Gondorians understood the situation, many having no doubt also lost loved ones in the War. I also agree that Denethor was successful as a father.

Tolkien made it clear, in his essay on the Stones in Unfinished Tales, which I quoted earlier, that the difference between Saruman falling under Sauron's influence and Denethor, while still opposing Sauron, falling into despair, was due to the latter being 'a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son'.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There is an aspect to Denethor's madness and Saruman's fall that I have often wondered about, something that Gandalf says to Pippin after they have started the ride to Minas Tirith:

"And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not wrench it from [Sauron] and turn it where I would..."

Also of note, I think is Gandalf's slightly earlier remark concerning the palantir:

"But there is nothing that Sauron cannot turn to evil uses. Alas for Saruman! It was his downfall, as I now perceive. Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. Yet he must bear the blame. Fool! to keep it secret, for his own profit."

Given that Gandalf felt that pull after a very brief time in the vicinity of a palantir, and the fact that Saruman -- whose art was almost certainly much deeper than Denethor's -- was drawn into his own downfall via the palantir of Orthanc, how strongly did the palantir of Minas Tirith begin to pull at Denethor's mind, once Sauron started using the Ithil stone? I often think that it was only a matter of time before Denethor was pulled into a similar fate, one custom-made for his particular weak spots, simply because he lived so close to a thing that (for all I know) might have been whispering in his thoughts, both awake and asleep. Before he started using the palantir, Denethor appears to have been a good leader, even though his bearing could be rather arrogant at times. His Achilles heel, so to speak, seems to have been a combination of too much love for Gondor (to the point that the good of Gondor became more important to him than anything else) and the jealousy that arose from his rivalry with Thorongil/Aragorn. He had the right to use the palantir of Minas Tirith, and the wisdom to use it for the good of his country rather than his own profit, but he did not take into consideration the greater power of Sauron. Even as he attempted to use the stone to ferret out the possible weaknesses of his Enemy, Sauron was doing the same to him, without him apparently knowing it.

Was Denethor insane? Quite likely. But was his insanity the result of his pride? Perhaps in part, but certainly not in whole. Sauron manipulated what he saw to drive him to despair, and it was the ultimate despair of seeing his only remaining son on the brink of death while his city was under siege that pushed him over the edge, I think.

Just my two cents, as always.