Why Entwives? Must trees be bound in matrimony? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

wilwarin538 · 04-02-2010, 05:13 PM

Maybe he didn't mean it to be 'wife' in the sense of matrimony. The word comes from the Old English 'wif' which from what I can tell only meant 'woman', it didn't necessarily have a connection to marriage. Also if you consider the word 'midwife', that does not necessarily have to apply to someone who is married, and actually literally means 'woman who is with'. So even though we would assume 'wives' means marriage, perhaps Tolkien was not using the word in that sense?

Rumil · 04-02-2010, 05:19 PM

Possibly for the same reason as the 'Husbandmen' of Gondor?

Laurinquë · 04-02-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Maybe he didn't mean it to be 'wife' in the sense of matrimony. The word comes from the Old English 'wif' which from what I can tell only meant 'woman', it didn't necessarily have a connection to marriage. Also if you consider the word 'midwife', that does not necessarily have to apply to someone who is married, and actually literally means 'woman who is with'. So even though we would assume 'wives' means marriage, perhaps Tolkien was not using the word in that sense?

That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumil

Possibly for the same reason as the 'Husbandmen' of Gondor?

Possibly.

But the whole idea just seems so unnecessary. Husbandmen huh?

Eönwë · 04-02-2010, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurinquë

That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.

I think she means midwife, which I believe comes from the Old English mid (with) + wif (woman).

Entwif, which would be translated as "giant-woman" from Old English, would easily be able to turn into Entwife over time.

wilwarin538 · 04-02-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurinquë

That is quite plausible, but it still "with"? With what? Ent + with (if we assume wife means a woman who is with) a woman who is with an Ent. They are of the Ent species, so are they with themselves or . . . I think I am confusing myself here.

Haha, I actually meant that the word 'midwife' means 'woman who is with', the wife part meaning woman, and the 'who is with' part referring to 'mid'. I was just saying that the word 'wife' is the suffix in that word as it is for 'entwife', but it is used only to refer to women, not necessarily marriage, so perhaps it is the same for entwives.

Basically what Eonwe just said.

Galadriel55 · 10-27-2010, 04:27 PM

Also, you say "man and wife", not husband and wife. so it makes sense that wife means woman

Mithalwen · 10-27-2010, 05:03 PM

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...hlight=midwife

This thread might be of interest.

Originally man mean person and was genderneutral- a man in our usage was a wereman while a woman was a wyfman.

Galadriel55 · 10-29-2010, 02:29 PM

exactly: wyfman = wife man
here you go! wife means woman

04-02-2010, 05:13 PM	#1
wilwarin538 Fluttering Enchantment Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 2,508	Maybe he didn't mean it to be 'wife' in the sense of matrimony. The word comes from the Old English 'wif' which from what I can tell only meant 'woman', it didn't necessarily have a connection to marriage. Also if you consider the word 'midwife', that does not necessarily have to apply to someone who is married, and actually literally means 'woman who is with'. So even though we would assume 'wives' means marriage, perhaps Tolkien was not using the word in that sense? __________________ Comme une étoile amarante Comme un papillon de nuit C'est la lumière qui m'attire La flamme qui m'éblouit Fenris Muffin

04-02-2010, 05:19 PM	#2
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Possibly for the same reason as the 'Husbandmen' of Gondor? __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

10-27-2010, 04:27 PM	#6
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,495	Also, you say "man and wife", not husband and wife. so it makes sense that wife means woman __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

10-27-2010, 05:03 PM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...hlight=midwife This thread might be of interest. Originally man mean person and was genderneutral- a man in our usage was a wereman while a woman was a wyfman. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

10-29-2010, 02:29 PM	#8
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,495	exactly: wyfman = wife man here you go! wife means woman __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera