Cursing In the Books

[Nazgûl-king]

I think we could say that it is Mandos, with Iluvatar’s permission, that grants that fulfillment of curses and decides which curses get fulfilled and which ones don’t. Mandos to me seems like someone who does not talk much, but when he talks it is important because he seems to speak prophecies or dooms. For example there is the curse of Mandos on the Noldor. So I think we could say that when a curse is said in Middle-earth Mandos hears it, consults Iluvatar about it, and then based on what he says either fulfils it or denies it. Of course this is just speculation. Of corse in Morgoth's case with Túrin it is Morgoth's will that carries out the curse.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good idea, Nazgul-king. Why not, as for the matter of who sort of puts the curse to action, I don't see why it couldn't be Mandos and there are indeed instances, like the Doom of Noldor, that support this claim. Let's just emphasise, however, that it's not Mandos' initiative to curse the Noldor or something, but he is merely doing somebody else's will (as you have basically said in your post, I only felt the need to emphasise it). So if Yavanna for example is the so-called "minister of nature" among the Valar, Mandos might as well be the "minister of curses" (or "minister of justice", if you want it to sound better).

[skip spence]

But doesn't Mandos know all that is to come? Unless that is a line is a my mind made up. But I don't think Mandos is the decision-making type, nor one to offer his opinion. He reluctantly issues dooms yes and he's never wrong, but I think that is because he knows what's going to happen and not because he makes it happen.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But doesn't Mandos know all that is to come? Unless that is a line is a my mind made up. But I don't think Mandos is the decision-making type, nor one to offer his opinion. He reluctantly issues dooms yes and he's never wrong, but I think that is because he knows what's going to happen and not because he makes it happen.

I think he knows everything except what is outside the Music, ie: what is still under Ilúvatar's freedom to alter.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think he knows everything except what is outside the Music, ie: what is still under Ilúvatar's freedom to alter.

Think so too. And isn't that a good argument that Mandos is not one to deny or enable individual curses. It is not within his jurisdiction or power to do so. Mandos too is bound by the Music.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

In other words:

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

He forgets nothing; and he knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Ilúvatar. He is the Doomsman of the Valar; but he pronounces his dooms and his Judgements only at the bidding of Manwë.

Obviously I think we can apply this also to the curses. I think there is no need to add anything, the last sentence is perfectly clear.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Obviously I think we can apply this also to the curses. I think there is no need to add anything, the last sentence is perfectly clear.

Not to this passage from The Valaquenta anyway--I would modify Nazgûl-King's statement, however, to remove any reference to Mandos consulting Ilúvatar. Communication with Eru from within Arda seems to normatively, if not exclusively, be the prerogative of the Elder King.

However, insofar as this nuance is sort of contained in the quoted statement from The Valaquenta, it's more of an emphasis than a disagreement on my part.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

I think we could say that it is Mandos, with Iluvatar’s permission, that grants that fulfillment of curses and decides which curses get fulfilled and which ones don’t. Mandos to me seems like someone who does not talk much, but when he talks it is important because he seems to speak prophecies or dooms. For example there is the curse of Mandos on the Noldor. So I think we could say that when a curse is said in Middle-earth Mandos hears it, consults Iluvatar about it, and then based on what he says either fulfils it or denies it. Of course this is just speculation. Of corse in Morgoth's case with Túrin it is Morgoth's will that carries out the curse.

I don't think that's a bad idea at all. My only caveat would be that perhaps the Dwarf-curses were 'administered' by Aulë. their sub-creator and 'father'.