WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Thinlómien]

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

And while you answer, I'm really off to check yesterDay. (What did I do before? Checked my bank account - I had got money, yay!, e-mails and had breakfast... )

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

And while you answer, I'm really off to check yesterDay. (What did I do before? Checked my bank account - I had got money, yay!, e-mails and had breakfast... )

Right, one more post.

I've said why I think Sally's a wolf.

Boro and I agreed most fervently that Greenie was a wolf based on her vote, general air of apologeticness, and other behaviors that I'll mention in the analysis post I will make tomorrow (as in tomorrow, not toMorrow).

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

I'll analyze the other three in the morning. For now, I'm too tired and anything I post will be silly.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by skippy

But with your angle, holding on to this option would appear suspicious and for wolves to retract his or her vote early on would divert attention away from them unless all others quickly follow suit.

What do you mean by this?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Sorry, would have posted more

Yeah I know, it wasn't an accusation (of not posting enough, not of wolvery), just a remark that there was nothing I considered important in your posts. And the pleasure is mine.

#128: I don't think I'm on the same wavelength with Nog, there are just some differences in the way we think (seems to happen always), but I think he looks quite good for the time being. If he was a wolf, I don't think he would've brought up Fea's behaviour (does the cursed know about her status, could Fea be the cobbler etc).

Originally Posted by Nienna

Mira - she seems very innocent-Mira at the moment

What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Brinn - hmmm she seems like she is forcing normalcy... but I can't really tell

That's what I think of her too - always. I try to be careful not to suspect her every time because of it, but she and I aren't on the same wavelength, either... Although hmm I should probably check some old games (just to get some statistics) because there have been times I've decided not to suspect her simply because she doesn't feel right to me and she's turned out to be a wolf.

Originally Posted by Boro

what exacitically is the deal with all these gushy terms? Babies and sweethearts?

That's the way alliances are made, darling.

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever ), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Has been rather quiet this time around. --- maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Izzy as I remember her has never been one of the loudmouths, but I don't know if that's changed during my absence.

Hmm reading Glirdan's post (#142) and it seems my comment about the unlikeliness of pinning all the wolves on day 1 can be more or less ignored. Although I still think it's darn unlikely, and it's dangerous to be so convinced so early.

I think Izzy looks good.

I would love to see more substance from sally. Not too fond of her at the moment.

Originally Posted by ww

Someone please explain to me how eliminating re-votes will help the Non-wolf team later on

It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.

Originally Posted by ww

Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.

Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.

I like Glirdan for now.

I have to go now (going to see a play with a friend, yay!), will be back some time in the evening.

[Mirandir]

Oooh not a ton for me to catch up on even though the Day's more than half over. *approves*

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I suspected Mira and Morsul more.

Yes dear, would you care to explain that one for me please?

I also really disliked Zil's vote for me. If he could explain that too, I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.

Dead on.

So enough about me.

I tend to trust Lottie's shirriff reveal, since I see no reason not to. Her suspicion of Greenie makes me suspicious of her by default, but I'll have to go through and look a bit deeper at her posts.

So based on that information, I'll probably vote for Agan, Zil, or Greenie unless they manage to clear themselves in my eyes.

I'm also on the fence about Morsul and sally. Morsul's "vote of opportunity" seems mighty suspicious.

Said analysis of Greenie's posts might take a while since it's finals week and I reeeeally need to not get another D in seminar. Just sayin'.

[Inziladun]

My trust of Lottie is at about 99%, since I really think the legitimate remaining Shirriff would have come forward by now if she was lying.
At least that gives me someone whose words I can take as truth, and she is quite adept at spotting wolves. That said, you aren't the Seer, Lottie, so you may not be right about all your suspects.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Loslote, why are you so sure the wolf quartet is Greenie, Agan, Glirdan and Sally?

Originally Posted by Loslote

I've said why I think Sally's a wolf.

Boro and I agreed most fervently that Greenie was a wolf based on her vote, general air of apologeticness, and other behaviors that I'll mention in the analysis post I will make tomorrow (as in tomorrow, not toMorrow).

Glirdy's actions scream wolf (especially his Shasta vote - vote someone who looks not at all suspicious because he voted for your packmate? ).

Agan was a main advocate of my death, but didn't actually vote me and thus stayed out of the spotlight. She mostly seemed to be helping quite a bit but didn't really do much in terms of real contribution.

After what's been said toDay, I think I agree that Sally looks the worst of that quartet.
Of the others, Glirdan and Agan are the ones I would need to look at more closely before I would conclude furriness. I'll try to do that now.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by winty

Finally, many have mentioned how Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.

Sorry, but I just can't help laughing at this because the reasoning seems obviously fabricated since you're just trying to find an excuse many hours later for voting me. You can't vote for someone at the beginning of the Day, then at the end of the Day reason your vote based on things that have been said throughout the Day. Not to mention, the reason itself is extremely poor. I'm good at the game therefore, I must be a wolf? Does that mean to you that anyone who doesn't seem to play the game well must therefore be innocent?

Looks pretty much like newbie behaviour to me, but it doesn't make it any less irritating. I just hope you'll be more logical toDay when going about your suspicions.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'd not ignore the Lottie-voters either. True, I don't want to fall into the "one of them has them has to be a wolf" trap, because I've played too many games where wolves have kept right out of a bandwagon. However, the circumstances of that particular one are quite odd.

I never said that we should. In fact, we should not be ignoring anyone because that is how wolves don't get caught. Unfortunately, when there's this many players around it can be really difficult to focus on everyone, unless you have a whole bunch of time on your hands...which most of us don't.

Originally Posted by Legate

Okay, now actually along this train of thought, I have arrived somehow to being more inclined to believe that there might have been a Wolf among Fea voters more probably. If so, then I'd really put my bets on Brinn, as if you look at what she said toDay early, she started assuming a Wolf in Lottie-saving bandwaggon, but she explicitely named Greenie-wagon to be looked at, which could mean downplaying Fea-voters (of whom she is one)... and the more if Greenie was another fellow Wolf of hers.

The only reason I haven't paid attention to the other Fea voters is because I find Nogrod and skip to be reasonable so far. Of course, I realise this is partly because I do agree with them on some levels. I don't recall anything from yesterDay would give me reason to suspect them. Anyone is welcome to look at the Fea bandwagon. After all, it's totally possible Nogrod or skip is a wolf; I just don't see it yet, though that may always change later into the game. Though if you choose to simply focus on me, you'll find that it'll get you nowhere. As for suggesting the Greenie wagon, I said that I thought it's worth looking at, but I have no actual opinion of it at the moment since I have yet to review yesterDay's events.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")

Again, I am skimming through the thread so that's how I interpreted it. There was less content early in the Day which made the silly behaviour more noticeable, but once the larger bulk of posts arrived, it's easier to miss further points made about someone when there's so much to read. I even put in my post:

Originally Posted by me

*Correct me if I'm wrong. I admit I'm not reading posts thoroughly because I'm multi-tasking with schoolwork, so I could easily be missing something here.

No one corrected me, so I wasn't given a reason to think otherwise. Would you like to still show me these serious points against Lottie? Not that it's terribly relevant since it's pretty much certain now she's not a wolf, but I'm still not sure what points you're talking about.

I have somewhere to be soon, so I must go. I'll be back later and will then finally take a closer look at yesterDay (and toDay), but I have to limit myself because I really can't spend the entire evening on WW and not do any schoolwork.

[Inziladun]

I had to eliminate a couple of smilies.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Yay!! It's time to hunt for the Wolvsies and have some tea!! Speaking of tea...Sally would you be so kind as to move your furry little behind into a different pot? That's my homemade blueberry pie with raisins tea you're sleeping in....

First post. IC, with a 'Get those wolves!' thrown in.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

First off, hello wintywinty and welcome!! Second:

Oh my...he really does seem to be a plain old innocent for this comment....yet Nerwen brings up an excellent point:

He very well could be simply a confused innocent or a really smart wolfywolfy....Currently I'm inclined to believe the first.

And Nerwen's sigh threw me off there too...A sigh of exasperation. Perhaps either because she is exasperated with the newbie thing or perhaps a sigh of exasperation of her fellow packmate?

Says he thinks ww is probably innocent, yet leaves open the possibility he and Nerwen are packmates.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Nothing about Day 1 is meaningless. What happens on Day 1 is our foundation for what is to happen in the later Days. Yes, most of the posting at the start is purely IC, random and sometimes completely pointless, but not always. There was a game not too long ago that I played where I got Hunter-Killed by a certain someone on Day 1 *coughMORSULcough* and most of that Day's discussion was purely speculation on some of the rules and thus led to the votes that were placed. (Or maybe I'm mixing that up with the game BEFORE it was restarted

Makes sense here about Day 1's being somewhat useful.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Come Sorry, would have posted more if it weren't for the fact that, as I have mentioned in the Admin thread, a good portion of the Day happens to occur during my sleeping hours and then six hours of schooling (with rehearsals every once in awhile afterwards) so I could not get much in other then IC stuff. By the way, it is a pleasure to play with you for the first time!

Explains lack of posting is due to RL. I can empathise.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

As for all of this retracting of the votes this early, I see the points raised on why it we should do it. However, personally, knowing my track record, I'm going to hold onto mine for a Day or two more.

I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

As it stands I am still at a loss of who to suspect and who not to...Lottie kinda stands out for me right now, but that might just be because she thinks I'm a Wolf.

I'm giving Agan a vote pass seeing as it has been a year since she's last played. I'm also giving a vote pass to skip and ww as the newbies to the game....Which leave everyone else.....

Okay, I'm going to go do a little more scrutinizing after I've found something to eat....

Says Lottie stands out because she suspects him. Says Agan, ww, and ss were deserving of Day 1 passes. I concurred with this also.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Quickly doing this for everyone:

Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn (please correct me if I'm wrong on this....)
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea

Okay, will be back shortly

Vote count.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Okay, so I am back and with a slightly clearer (albeit, it's still a little hazed, not gonna lie) view on things.

Nogrod – Cheshire Cat

For some reason I never suspect this guy....Maybe it's just because he always comes across as the level-headed one among us (which is saying something this time around ) or maybe it's just a charm he has....Although his vote for Fea has me a little worried. Voting for her simply for initiating the voting for Lottie? What reason is that? The bandwagon for Lottie (at least the voting anyway) did not start until well AFTER she had voted.....Hmmm....

Wintywinty – Tweedledum

Newbie pass

Boro88 – the Caterpillar

No read on him as of yet....Want to vote him but that would just be a retaliation vote

Isabellkya – White Rabbit

Has been rather quiet this time around. Maybe there is something RL that is preventing her from being here, or maybe it is a Wolvish tactic to try and sneak by?

Mira – March Hare

I have no read of my fellow tea patron

Sally – the Dormouse

Seems to be, well, Sally: Confusing and unreadable (and thank you for getting out of the tea pot!) yet I see nothing that indicates Wolvish behavior....yet.

Agan – Queen of Hearts

Giving a pass to her as she hasn't played in a year and I don't want to see her go just yet and has also been making some wonderful contributions to the game.

Inzil – King of Hearts

No read on His Grace

Shasta – Knave of Hearts

His vote for Greenie came out of nowhere and looks to me as if it is a Wolf trying to perhaps save one of his own from being lynched. Yet would a Wolf be so bold?

Lottie – Duchess

I don't know what to make of her....However, last time I played with her, we both were innocent and she got lynched Day 1....after having pinned all three Wolves on Day 1 (The sad thing is it happened to me on Day 2 )

Nerwen – the Dodo

Seemed a little too overprotective of winty initially, but that could easily have been her being exasperated with the newbie.

Legate – Jabberwocky

Has definitely been one of the few people talking sense all Day. Yet his vote for Lottie has me a little perplexed. He stated that he did not like all the bandwagon votes and suspicions for her yet he himself later voted her? True he had stated suspicions of her for awhile, but his vote almost seems as if he's making it to ensure her being lynched....Hmmmm....

Morsul – the Mock Turtle

Has seemed very Morsul like....which bugs me....Yet last time I voted him, he ended up being the Hunter and he Hunter killed me....So I think I'm going to leave him be for the time being.

Nienna – White Queen

Seems to be flying under the radar....perhaps a little too much, at least for my liking. Wolvish tactic to stay clear perhaps?

Fea – Red Queen

Her vote for Lottie is the only thing that holds any suspicion for me, yet it could very well be a Cobbler tactic....However, as pointed out earlier, the Cobbler can prove to be our downfall later in the game. Or maybe the vote was simply to be rid of her retractable vote?

Skip – Humpty Dumpty

Also getting a Newbie pass

Lommy – the Gryphon

I have no read on her.

Greenie – White Knight

Her vote for Lottie seems kind of like a bandwagon vote to me.

Brinniel – Tweedledee

Her posts all well thought out and full of substance


Okay, will make a list, will post it in a few and perhaps with my vote as well.

EDIT: Xed with Zil, Boro, Moddess and who knows who else....

Hmm. What stands out to me is that he knocked Shasta for voting Greenie, but himself noted that her vote for Lottie was bandwaggonish.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

A Vote Update!


Fea -------> Lottie
winty -------> Brinn
Lommy ---> Lottie(2)
Boro ------> Glirdan
Greenie --> Lottie(3)
Morsul ----> winty
Agan ------> Mira
Legate ----> Lottie(4)
Skip -------> Fea
Shasta ----> Greenie
Sally -------> Legate
Nogrod ---> Fea(2)
Zil ----------> Mira(2)

Another vote count.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Not Voting
Winty
Skip
Agan
Brinn
Morsul

Probably Won't Vote
Sally
Nerwen
Boro
Izzy
Mira
Inzil
Nienna
Lommy

Could Vote For
Fea
Lottie
Nogrod
Legate
Greenie
Shasta


By the by, this is not necessarily in order (as in the could vote for, just because Fea is at the top does not mean she's my top suspect)

A list of who he won't, might, and would vote for. It seems fairly consistent with things he'd said before.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

You know Lottie, I've read you're reasoning of suspecting me and I still don't quite understand it. Could I ask you to clarify?

A fair question to Lottie.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Can you explain to me how and when I have been fraternizing with Greenie and Agan? I have not said two words to either of them. As for Sally, yes, I have fraternized with her, IC, as, if you have read the books, our characters go together.

Asks Lottie for more clarification about her suspicions of him.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

And you would know this how? Only way you would be able to know anything about what I would do is if you're a mind-reader.

Now this sounds a little defensive to me, but then it could have been the reaction of an exasperated innocent too.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Okay, I'm going to vote.....

highlight]++Shasta[/highlight]

Yes, this will probably end up being a throw-away vote, but I actually do find him a little suspicious. His vote for Greenie came out of absolutely nowhere and really had no substantial backing to it.

Admits Shasta was a throwaway vote (and it was, because Shasta had no other votes), but his explanation is at least consistent with his earlier remarks about Shasta.
However, I still would wonder why he thought Shasta was bad for voting Greenie, when Glirdan noted Greenie's vote for Lottie looked bandwaggonish.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Well, I didn't vote Lottie cuz I actually think the bandwagon for her is ridiculous, I really do. I want to see her stay. She's pretty good at picking out the Wolves, why the get rid of her?

Wants to see Lottie stay, but he could have picked someone who had a shot of being lynched as an alternate.

Conclusions: I agree with a lot of the smaller points he's brought up, but his vote could have been better. And I know, the same could be said about me.
I'm not convinced he's a wolf, but I'm by no means convinced of his innocence either.

x/d with Brinn

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Only here for the next two minutes or so, so I haven't had time to do more than skim, but I do have one quick thing to say - I still don't like Greenie's vote from yesterday.

I should be back in a few hours with something of more substance.

[wilwarin538]

Votes

Morsul -> Sally
Nerwen -> Sally (2)

Because I'm cool like that.

[Aganzir]

Okay I'm seriously going to kill Lommy if she's a wolf because I love her vote analysis post and generally seem to agree with her quite much.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.

And I don't like Lottie the Known Innocent being convinced I'm a baddie with flimsy and subjective "I've already decided you're a wolf and do my best to pick up only those things you've done that back up my theory" reasons. If she wasn't a known innocent I'm pretty certain wouldn't be picking a fight with her but attacking her in return.

Originally Posted by skippy

What I'm saying, I guess, is that you are making a big deal of this.

Yeah, on that I agree, and I suppose I make too big a deal of it but once I got started, it just felt natural to carry on with it. I still think it would be good if no one had their retraction left in a couple of days, but I see that's very unlikely to happen (and in that light, it was a mistake to waste mine, but I am a woman of my word). Still, those who haven't used their retraction should be kept an eye on, and not just during the last days when it can really make a difference because then it's already too late (the wolves can always come up with an excuse to save their retraction for a few days).
I am not telling anybody to do it, but I think it's what an innocent would do...

Hey Zil sorry if I've missed something but I don't think I got an answer to my question:

[Zil thought] the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

I think knowing sally's role would shed some light on other people, but although I have nothing against her death, I don't like Morsul's vote. It doesn't seem genuine, it looks as if he was intentionally trying to come up with reasons to vote for her. Okay Nienna phrased it better than me, I basically agree with her.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

was her role really that surprising?

Yes in the same way as when a wolf you haven't been suspecting dies. It didn't occur to you that they were a wolf so you're surprised, although in hindsight you should've (or could have) guessed. But I don't think that's a very important issue.

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question:

What makes you think so? She had just posted a couple of times and most of it was banter, and her only real contribution was something I found suspicious.

Originally Posted by Brinn (about ww's vote)

at the end of the Day reason your vote based on things that have been said throughout the Day.

The thing is, nobody said that you have good insights and you're a very good player/wolf - during the day. Winty says it's something many have said, but who has he heard it from if no one has said so here? Lottie how much have you been talking to him about the Downs, and have you praised Brinn to him?
It might be newbie behaviour, but I think it's pretty darn suspicious newbie behaviour. And although Brinn brought up other points against him (you can't vote for someone early and explain it by things "others have said"), her reaction to winty's post is somewhat lesser than I imagined it would be. It looks as if she was giving him advice, but if they were fellows why did he vote for her then? Of course it's possible she's nothing but an experienced player instructing a newbie, regardless of their roles...

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey Nienna you didn't answer my question:

Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.

On Greenie:

30 – First post, complains about the votes so far and the madness/oddness of the day, she warns of bad participation but promises better in the next Days, asks people to be sensible

61 – Doesn’t agree with Mira’s reflection that WinWin’s vote was suspicious, Agan is being helpful and providing substance, doesn’t like Lottie’s “gut feelings” as they provide a nice out if an innocent is lynched, thinks Lommy is being mysterious and weird… she knows it isn’t usual but she isn’t sure if it is suspicious or not

86 – apologizes for poor concentration, votes Lottie (3rd vote) with what she knows is outrageously bad reasoning, she thinks Lottie may be an easy day one Ordo lynch but she is the only person that Greenie thinks is being suspicious.

On the whole her participation hasn't been good (which she warned of) but her reasoning for voting Lottie was poor and even though she knows it was poor that isn't really an excuse. If she was worried about a bandwagon she could have voted someone else. I would love to please hear more from her toDay.

[satansaloser2005]

Sally demands an explanation for this suspicion crap. Like, seriously?

I'll explain the thing with Morsul and Shasta though, because I can see how you would be confused. I suspected Morsul already and had been planning to say something about it, so when Shasta did as well I was like "Look, yay, support, I'm not crazy". Then Shasta says he realized Morsul was kidding (yeah, because NO ONE has every hidden behind jokes before, oh noes, never) and I thought it was strange because for pity's sake, that was a quick flip flop and quite the lame excuse. So then I made it clear that I suspected Morsul anyway, 'cause I hadn't been following Shasta in the first place, he just happened to post first.


Oh, and did no one see that I'd been suspecting Lottie from the beginning? Sure, Legate can say he started the trend but I said "Something's not right with her" well toward the beginning of the Day. (Yes, I know, I was clearly wrong, but that's not the point.) And I never went toward a "Save Lottie she's innocent" point of view. The only thing I said that could be read like that was that I wanted to not kill her on Day One (AGAIN) and that I thought there were better candidates.



Really, this is ridiculous. I think you've all been putting things in your tea.


As a side note, I'm leaving now, but I'll be back later and will look at people. I want to look at newbienewbie again because I was still getting alarm bells there a bit, but I don't want people to waste time suspecting me (especially with such crappy reasoning) when there are cleary wolves to catch.


Back later! Behave until then, please?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Brinn

No one corrected me, so I wasn't given a reason to think otherwise. Would you like to still show me these serious points against Lottie? Not that it's terribly relevant since it's pretty much certain now she's not a wolf, but I'm still not sure what points you're talking about.

I don't have time to look them up now (it's late and we share net with Greenie) but you should find them by searching for "lottie" or "loslote" in any Loslote-voter's (or Aganzir's) post. I was mostly wary of her apologetic, suspiciousness-admitting attitude which I associate with relative-newbie wolves.

One word about the retractions - I think the one-retraction rule is mostly because if somebody has to leave early and doesn't know if s/he can be back, so then s/he can vote and switch it if the situation has totally changed. In that sense, it does make sense, although I personally dislike reatractable votes too.


edit: xed with Nog and Mir

[Thinlómien]

Ai ai, that Mira post screams evil to me. The problem is, I always suspect her, regardless of her role.

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
Morsul. I still don't like his reasoning but I don't know if I'm reading too much into it because apparently everyone else (who has played with him before) is fine with it.

Mira. I don't have anything on her except for her weird treatment of winty, but she's staying here until she gives me a reason to consider her innocent. If she's a wolf, I'll be almost convinced Inzil is not.

winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Inzil. I don't like his comment about the Lottie wagon. Plus he seems to trust Lottie enough to consider her suspects (or all of them except for, conveniently, Greenie) serious enough to go through them himself but still thinks it's appropriate of me to ask Lottie why she's so sure... If he's a wolf I think Greenie should be looked closely at, and the other way round (I'm just afraid it would be too obvious though). And of course knowing his role would shed some light on Mira's. Actually I might well vote for him today.

INNOCENT
Lottie. Although I do think her suspicion of me is bad (obviously since I'm innocent) and she's generally too convinced about people's guilt too early.

Lommy. Speaks sensibly and things I can easily agree on. Of course there's a chance she's fooling me magnificently but at the moment I'm not too concerned about that, because she really seems innocent.

Isabell. Speaks sense and I find myself agreeing with her, although I'm not sure if I should be worried because I also have a history of mistrusting her when she's innocent (ie always, except for her first game, but it doesn't count because we were fellows).

Nienna. She is sensible and has a generally innocent air.

skip. I think he looks quite innocent, and of course I might misjudge him but I don't think he'd ask if the wolves knew the cobbler's identity if he was one.

Legate. Had a small dispute with Inzil, I don't know what to make of it but I'd like to know Inzil's role for sure soon. Seems quite innocentish.

EITHER
Nog. Still looks innocent enough, and he nailed Fea which I don't think a wolfish Noggy had done (hmm except that one of my first lessons was that Wolfgrod does anything that makes him look innocent, even at a cost to his pack). Okay I don't think he's guilty but I'm not convinced about his innocence either so he's here.

sally. Seems to be today's favourite lynch target. Mostly banter and that's almost enough of a reason for me to vote for her. Plus her death would shed light on other people. I think her reaction to being suspected was outraged in an innocentish way, though.

Glirdan. Haven't formed an opinion, and because I want to go to sleep soon it will have to wait.

Shasta. See Glirdan.

Greenie. No new material, people have brought up points against her but I will have to look at it, and I don't think her vote was so bad.

Brinniel. Innocentish and sensible but her reaction to winty's reasoning didn't sit quite right with me. Will have to see more.

Nerwen. She's the last because I'm at the moment rather undecided about her. I didn't like how she jumped on winty's day 1 vote (come on he's a newbie), but apart from that she's been innocentish. However she's Nerwen so you never know.

[wintywinty]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

GUILTY
winty. An extremely fishy explanation for his vote. First, no one had said anything like that about Brinn (Brinn's qualities as a player were discussed very little anyway). Plus (as Brinn said) the explanation seems quite obviously fabricated. I don't know how much of it to put down on his being a newbie (and I want to know how much he knows through Lottie), but generally honesty is better than lying, even if you have to admit you've down something silly.

Ok, I admit, my first vote was a newbie mistake; I have not played this game online before, and I did not want to admit my mistake (I hate being wrong, Lottie can attest to that.), which was my reason for saying that about Brinn.

[Inziladun]

*NOTE*- many smilies eliminated

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I always wonder why, if the mod starts a day early, they allow the wolves to PM at the same time that the village can talk. I would so want to seize the opportunity to do something silly with my fellows if I was in that situation.

This was her first post, and I edited out some of the banter and things I didn't find signigicant.
Regarding the above statement, I'm not sure what, if anything, to make of it, but it seems like an odd thing to say.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Hey Shasta why does Fea's vote bother you? And why do you say 'still' when that's the first time you say it?

Brinn seems to be her normal self (ie she slightly rubs me the wrong way). But yeah she speaks sense, unlike most of the others.

By the way winty, we shouldn't edit our posts except to mark cross-posting. And it's true there are no reasons for votes yet, but that's why we're talking. Sooner or later somebody says or does something suspicious. Of course it helps if we have some corpses whose relations to living players we can observe, but first we need to get going.

No it doesn't make me evil, it only makes me unfaithful.

Greenie's tone strikes me as overly self-conscious! Nothing has indeed changed during my absence!

Usually when a newbie wolf enters the pack the older team members tell them to look just as new and ignorant and confused as they normally would and not to give away the slightest hint that they have received nightly counsel. And you have been a wolf enough times to know this is true. Or are you speculating about what you did last night? What exactly made you draw attention to winty after two posts? It looks like a Nerwolf looking for an easy lynch.

I thought the bit at the end about Nerwen was an overreaction. I didn't get anything like that from Nerwen's comments about ww.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

The seer should keep in mind that they can't trust their dreams 100% because the cobbler appears as innocent. Last time I played in a game where the seer couldn't discern the cobbler's true identity, we wolves totally used it to our advantage and left him alive although he was supposedly a known innocent, and in the end we won because we could control his vote... Ah fond memories! But yeah that's why I think the cobbler should be killed as soon as possible (ie if the seer says 'X is an ordo' but we think 'X is damn suspicious' => lynch X), I've played in too many a game (three readily spring to mind) where people have said, 'Let's go for the most wolfish-looking person, we can deal with the cobbler later.' Well, when there are fewer and fewer people left, nobody wants to 'waste' a lynch on the cobbler and ta-da, soon the cobbler plays a crucial role in the evil victory.

Makes a good point about why someone looking like the Cobbler should be treated as a wolf, ie lynched. I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Also, if the Cursed is turned (and the risk exists until they die and we see they were the Cursed), it practically destroys the seer's known innocent list.
I am saying this now as I've said this before, because it's better if the seer isn't sure than if the seer is too sure and wrong.

Again, makes sense.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Basically a wolf can vote in any way whatsoever, and playing a major role in the lynching of a wolf doesn't redeem anybody because wolves might as well sacrifice one for the pack to make the rest look good.

Yes and no. If it's early in the game, I'd say the wolves are highly unlikely to make a gamble like that. Later on, however, maybe.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Even if you don't understand why somebody does something, it doesn't make it silly. And what does it matter if they 'waste' their retractable votes early on? After all it's the wolves who benefit the most from them, and if everybody used theirs at once, we would eliminate the risk of wolf-organised lynches later.
I don't claim Fea's or winty's vote make them innocent, but Morsul is awfully quick to jump on them with flimsy reasoning.

Doesn't like Morsul suspecting the early voters, Fea and ww.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Using the retractable votes quickly might be worth some discussion... Personally I would be happy with everybody using theirs as soon as possible. Innocents vote alone, but the wolves, having a way to communicate, can use their votes in a much broader scale. I seem to remember a game (phantom's last one, for those who know. In addition to their normal daily vote, every player had 10 extra votes they could use whenever they wished) where pretty much everybody else but the wolves used some of their votes during the first days. The wolves saved all or most of theirs for later and won because they could use their extra votes against the village all at once.
And when there is something like 6 people left, two of whom wolves, it does make a difference if the wolves can retract and the others cannot.

I don't agree with the idea that everyone should get rid of their retractable vote for no purpose. I've already said why not, though, so I won't go into it again.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I was honestly expecting people would jump on my comment like 'You there are you trying to undermine the seer's authority and sow discord, you're a wolf!' so does the fact that you liked my point mean you're a wolf?

A response to Legate saying he agreed with her statements about the Seer and Cobbler.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah but there are some things that remain pretty much the same from game to game, among them that newbie wolves should behave as if they had no pack backing them up. And I don't think the "newbie or newbie wolf" question is a problem yet - thus far it's just a question, but you're trying to make it a problem. So we lynch winty and she/he was an innocent, and what have we left? An easy lynch and nothing else.

Responding to Nerwen, who said whether ww was a newbie or a newbie-wolf should be looked at. I don't think Nerwen was being too forceful on the subject. I found ww's behaviour unnerving also, and Agan comes across as somewhat overly agressive here.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Trust me, if I was looking for an easy day 1 lynch after a year's WW break, it would not be you.
Yeah his vote was random, but he is a newbie and at least I am willing to forgive newbies for things I wouldn't forgive for example people like you on day 1. It's alright to remark on it, but I think you were pushing it a tad too hard. Making it a bigger issue than it really was.

Explains why she doesn't like Nerwen's scrutiny of ww. I just don't get how Nerwen was over-the-top on that.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Thanks for saving my voice and speaking my thoughts aloud, dear husband.

Apparently agrees with me that ww may have just been following Fea or joking with his vote.

This next quote was Mira's:

I do agree with whoever suggested it might be of a wolfish nature and xe was told to act newbieish to allay suspicion. Or it could be a newbie mistake.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Your conclusion = it was suspicious? I see but a plus-minus-zero situation.

I agree with Agan, and that's one of the reasons I ended up voting Mira. That statement looked off.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Guilty
Mira. Suspecting newbies is just way too easy, and at the same time she clears Fea's vote (despite the 'on a more serious note' start, the whole comment looked like a joke though).
Morsul. I don't like his reasoning, he seems way too quick to jump to conclusions. But maybe it's just his style. Out of curiosity, how many games have you actually played in, Morsul?
Lottie. I didn't really see any issue with Lottie's earlier behaviour (granted I just skimmed through her first posts because I was in a hurry and didn't think they contained anything very important). However I disagree with her later comments on people - although I don't know if it's because of the content or the style they're written. And that moves her from Nonsense onto the Guilty list. It feels sort of weird that she should make an analysis of a player (Glirdy) who has only posted some random IC banter, like, who makes an analysis on day 1 when there's so little to go on? And hahaha it's sort of grotesque to use the abbreviations WW and SS for the newbies.

Those whom she suspects. All this seems fairly reasonable, except Morsul on the suspect list because of his 'style', whereas later she seem to want to give Lottie an allowance for the same thing.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nonsense
Glirdy. Content? Where's the actual content?
Nog. The first one to say he was uneasy about Lottie's behaviour, wasn't he? For relatively little reason, I think ("infamous mode of "no bad person, even insane one, would do that kind of a thing").
winty. Newbie so I won't vote for her/him today. I think people read too much into his/her vote.
sally. Content? Where's the actual content?
Shasta. It's a worse welcome than voting that you suspect me because of my natural lynch-happiness.
Fea. I'm alright with her vote.
Green. She's another one whose tone always sets me off and I always think she's too laid-back to have the village's best interests in mind, but so far I don't havean opinion of her.
Nerwen. I think her reaction to winty's vote was exaggerated and it looks as if she was looking for an easy lynch, but Nerwen and I also have a history of being on each other's throats (usually it starts with me on Nerwen's throat) so I'm going to wait for more evidence (like the word terrible ) before making a judgement.

She doesn't have Nerwen on her 'guilty' list, which makes me think Agan looks better there. It would have been all too easy to keep up that suspicion, if Agan was a wolf. Then again, there's the thought they could both be wolves.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nope for me it isn't. What if I died today or in the night and nobody else had thought of it (if it's not of any great strategic importance, I prefer to say what I mean to say right away and not wait for a more relevant situation that may never come)? And if the seer can't fully trust their dreams, it's better they keep it in mind from the start, not only if/when they come out with their name list. I have won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler was innocent, and if there's something I love, it's making my best so other wolves can't use my tricks to win when I'm not on their side.

Responding to Nog, who said all Agan's talk of the Seer and Cobbler wasn't a major issue at the moment.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Greenie's last post moves her up towards my Innocent list because I agree with her (actually about everything) and she calls me lovely. However I wonder too if I should be worried that I don't suspect her, because usually when I do she's innocent.

Agrees with Geenie's post here.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ookay I've never played with Morsul before so I don't know how he's supposed to behave, but I don't like him nonetheless and he's still a candidate for my vote.

Morsul has been known to garner a few votes for his playing style.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think Greenie and Legate and Lommy do have a point about Lottie and I might vote for her too but then again I'm unsure because I don't know her style.

Now again, why is Morsul worse because of the way he plays, but she admits her problems with Lottie may also be due to the latter's style?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Sorry but would you care to speak English that's understandable even to a non-native speaker so I don't have to spend a twice longer time reading your post than I would need for anyone else?

As you might have noticed I didn't play in last game. And it's perfectly alright to point out what you find odd, but your thought process in the post I found suspicious seemed half-hearted and lazy and somehow far-fetched too (the part that Lommy or someone else pointed out). Give better reasons for your suspicions and I might change my mind about you.

All that was directed at Morsul. I had some trouble deciphering this myself.

Originally Posted by Aganzir;626749

highlight

++Mirandir[/highlight]

because thus far she seems the most suspicious to me.

oh and

highlight]--Mirandir[/highlight]
highlight]++Mirandir[/highlight]

as I dislike retrackies anyway, and this is what I think everyone should do because otherwise the wolves will probably use them against us in the end.

Votes Mira, puts her money where her mouth is on the retractables.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think we really should keep track on who has used their retraction and who hasn't, and that everyone should use them asap, because as I've said they are more useful to the wolves than to us.

I think that's a decent idea.

That's it for Day 1.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay I don't have too much time now...

*is sad about Boro's death* :

Me too but I'm happy she was lynched in the end. That's what happens when you think you know better what Fea is doing...

No s*it Sherlock!
I don't think the connection was that obvious either. While skimming through the thread in the night I noticed there might be something between them, but I didn't actually think they were the Shirriffs. However it's likely that the wolves spend more time looking for possible connections than the innocents. But on the other hand, Lottie might have been a relatively easy lynch today... So I don't really know.

Good morning Brinn! And to be honest I'm quite surprised that Lommy is posting as early as at 11.

Lottie I'll have to go through sally myself before judging her but I think you're maybe a bit too subjective in your analysis (at least Lommy and Macalaure are allowed to laugh at this comment). Like, you've already decided she's a wolf so you consequentially see everything she says or does in that light.

I've done that before, and been wrong.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And yeah this is Aganwolf defending her fellow and whatnot (by the way last night I had a dream I was a wolf. Inzil was too).

Going to post it in the BD Dreams?

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I'd like to know that too (and not only because I'm one of her wolves) and I would totally be suspecting her because of it if she wasn't the other Shirriff... Because I have yet to see a day 1 when someody pins down all the wolves at once (oh wait I did that in Mith's game! But granted it was jokingly).

Certainly a fair question for Lottie, as to how she's so sure she's nailed the wolf-pack.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ah ha! Main advocate? I don't think so. I thought other people (Greenie at least) had good points about you and I found you suspicious, but it was not enough to vote for you. I suspected Mira and Morsul more. And if I had voted for you, you'd accuse me of jumping into the bandwagon now, eh?
And what's this real contribution you're talking about? How is your contribution different from or better than mine?

Agan does have a point or two. She did throw suspicion Lottie's way, but hers didn't seem to be the loudest voice calling for Lottie's lynch.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Okay Inzil's vote is based on my suspicions of Mira. While I have nothing against people agreeing with me (it makes me feel clever ), I don't think the vote looks too good. Or, it all depends on Mira's role. If she turns out to be a wolf then Inzil will be more or less cleared in my mind, but if not Inzil looks worse.
He also considered Fea but didn't vote for her simply because he didn't think she was a wolf, and then attacked the Lottie-wagoners, saying the bandwagon was suspicious but two of its members (Lommy & Legate) were not and one (Green) got the benefit of doubt because of being busy. Why exactly was the Lottie-train suspicious then?

Looks like I have to go through this one more time.

I didn't know what to make of Fea. I honestly considered the idea she was the Cobbler, but then again her vote was something a Fea of any stripe might have done. So I wasn't prepared to vote for her.

I don't think I ever said Legate and Lommy were not suspicious, but as I looked back over things I couldn't find much else, beyond their votes for Lottie, that pointed to which of them, if either, was the more likely wolf. At any rate, when I voted it didn't look as if either one of them would have been lynched, and I didn't want to simply throw away my vote that way.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

It will not actually help us, but if nobody had their retractions, it wouldn't help the wolves either, and that's what I'm after... However I see I'm not getting much support. Quite a few people have said they want to save their votes because they've been in a situation before where their vote has been the decisive one. Might well be there's a wolf among them, but I have no time to pursue that further now.

Considering the fact that very few have used their retractables, I would say it's highly likely there's wolves in the group that hasn't. I don't see how not wanting to waste a tool that could just as easily be used against wolves as to aid them, is a mark of evil.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

[QUOTEww]Tweedledee always has good insights on shtuff and she seems very good at the game, therefore if she is a wolf, then she would be huge asset to the wolf team. This is my reasoning for voting for Tweedledee.

Who has said that? I don't disagree, I just can't for the life in me remember having seen anyone talk about Brinn before your vote.[/QUOTE]

That line of reasoning from ww is very poor coming from an innocent. But you don't disagree?

Conclusion? As with Glirdan, I've found myself agreeing with some of the things she's said. I didn't like the way she suspected Nerwen for making what I thought were reasonable questions about ww. There was also the way she appears to have something of a double standard when it comes to Morsul and Lottie, and allowing for their playing styles.
The way she toDay insinuates that those who want to keep their retractables in case they need them are possibly wolfy for wanting to do so is at best a long shot, and at worst a furry plan to fabricate some cases on people.
I think I'm on the fence for the moment, but if she starts in on people who aren't willing to dump their retractables that could change.

x/d with all since my last

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Ooops sorry dear it must have gotten lost in the shuffle. Mira's Day One participation are generally just banter and she has a tendency to air on the side of defensiveness where her "people" are concerned in the early stages(by "people" I mean mainly her RL friends). So to me her measly 3 posts yesterDay were very Mira-esque.

Okay thanks. I haven't changed my mind about her ww suspicion, but I'd like to hear more from her.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Yes and no. If it's early in the game, I'd say the wolves are highly unlikely to make a gamble like that. Later on, however, maybe.

Nope, they can do it as early as on day 1 if their fellow comes under heavy suspicion (or if they think there's no chance that their fellow is lynched). It's happened before and will continue to happen because it's just so darn convenient for the wolves.

I found ww's behaviour unnerving also, and Agan comes across as somewhat overly agressive here.

Seriously it was a newbie's first post.

Those whom she suspects. All this seems fairly reasonable, except Morsul on the suspect list because of his 'style', whereas later she seem to want to give Lottie an allowance for the same thing.

Not the same thing because their styles are different. Morsul's struck me as opportunistic whereas Lottie was mostly just too over-confident to my liking.

She doesn't have Nerwen on her 'guilty' list, which makes me think Agan looks better there. It would have been all too easy to keep up that suspicion, if Agan was a wolf.

No it wouldn't. If Nerwen had given me a reason to suspect her beyond her treatment of ww, I would have - regardless of my role.

I've done that before, and been wrong.

Me too and that's why I said Lommy and Mac may laugh at me (they both have been targets for my forceful and unjust attacks more than once ).

Going to post it in the BD Dreams?

Nope because as long as the game is running I'm not going to talk of it outside of the game thread. Who knows, I might be the seer who just dreamed of Wolfziladun, or it might be a lie I told for a reason unknown to you.
In any case, I can't remember anything more about the dream so I don't think I will even after the game is over.

I don't think I ever said Legate and Lommy were not suspicious, but as I looked back over things I couldn't find much else, beyond their votes for Lottie, that pointed to which of them, if either, was the more likely wolf.

Yes but what was so suspicious about the Lottie-wagon in the first place? You just decided it was fishy but when looking at the Lottie-voters, none of them was suspicious enough to receive your vote. Usually people and their reasons for voting make a bandwagon suspicious, not the other way round.

I don't see how not wanting to waste a tool that could just as easily be used against wolves as to aid them, is a mark of evil.

By itself it's not, but I think it's far more likely that the wolves use their retraction to kill an innocent than the other way round. Yeah I know they can be useful to the innocents too, but their benefit for the wolves is more imminent.

That line of reasoning from ww is very poor coming from an innocent. But you don't disagree?

What I don't disagree about is that Brinn is a good player and, if a wolf, asset to the wolf team (I've been a wolf with her and heck she's brilliant). I can hardly disagree (in the sense I understand the word) on what ww claims to be the reason for his vote.

Conclusion? As with Glirdan, I've found myself agreeing with some of the things she's said.

Most of the things, I would say.

I think I'm on the fence for the moment, but if she starts in on people who aren't willing to dump their retractables that could change.

I don't like that comment. I wasn't planning to do it, but that looks too much like a threat. Yeah yeah I might be totally overestimating how important the wolves consider the retrackies, but still.

I think sally should be suspected more often if it gets her to speak seriously. :-p

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

The croquet-game has been cancelled!

(~~~) *grin vanishing*


(~~~) *grin re-appearing*

Finally back and reading, that is.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[A Little Green]

Phew. Here at last, been running all day and now it's getting late again. I so wish the Day and Night phases were the other way round... So if I seem to be over-reacting (I fear I am) it's because I'm tired. This will be a mostly self-defensive post. The next one will include something rather more relevant to the game, I hope.

Originally Posted by Lottie

So then, Greenie. Her vote post was apologetic, she voted when I was starting to lead the votes (prime bandwaggon spot) and claimed not to have any real reason. If there is a wolf among these four, and I think there is, I'd bet it's Greenie.

Seriously, I know being annoyed won't exactly help a thing, but I can't but be a tad annoyed. What, exactly, are your reasons for suspecting me? I suspected you yesterDay and happened to get the internet after Lommy (we're using the same one) so I voted you only after some others had done that already. That, I suppose, made my vote bandwaggonish. I had a reason to suspect you, I didn't have reason to suspect anyone else, so I voted you. Simple as that. And I think I had voiced my suspicion of you before the bandwagon against you had even started, so you can't claim my vote was just jumping on the bandwagon. As for the apologetic tone of my vote post, I was being honest. It did pop into my mind that I might be pursuing what would turn out a typical Day 1 easy lynch. I made the mistake of saying it aloud – if I had just played more confident than I was no one would have made such a fuss about my vote. Give me better arguments, please.

Originally Posted by Nienna

votes Lottie (3rd vote) with what she knows is outrageously bad reasoning

Not quite! Outrageously bad phrasing, more like. The outrageously bad had to do with that I was kind of worried about a typical easy Day 1 lynch, but still wanted to vote for Lottie who I suspected. My reasons for voting Lottie, while not all that great, were still substantial by Day 1 standards.

EDIT: eurgh x-ed with a horse (hehe what a typo, was supposed to write 'horde' )

[Thinlómien]

*ahem*

Okay, wagons

- the Lottie-wagon
- the "I'm so concerned Loslote will be lynched, look at this unreasoned crowd against her" wagon
- the sudden Greenie-wagon
- the victorious Fea-wagon

There's something wrong with Lottie...
I didn't look at this wagon through and through, but it seems to me rather simple. A crowd of people living in Finland had been suspecting Lottie (among others or then just mostly her) during the Day and partly agreed with each others points and then they had to go to sleep and vote, around the same time. Most of them (me, Greenie & Legate) chose to vottie (hahaha a typo but let's leave it means "vote Lottie", obv.), some (Aganzir) didn't. Conclusions? If you ask me, I don't think the wagon is necessarily evil. After all, I thought we had good points against Lottie even though they turned out to be wrong, and everybody had a bit of their own grounds so no one was following others blindly. But of course, the Lottie wagon doesn't make us innocent either. What can we conclude, then? At least this: please people, don't mislead yourselves by concluding I must be more innocent than Legate or Greenie because of the placement of my vote. I think we would all have voted Lottie, whatever the order of our votes, but I just happened to decide to go to sleep first.

Eee! Lottie is an easy lynch and people are voting her for bad grounds! Oo, we're all gonna die!
So what's wrong here? Lottie might be an easy Day1 lynch (I don't remember her fate in the games I've played with her so I can't verify this but I trust it if you say so), but the grounds for voting her weren't lousy - even though she's now proven innocent. It makes me slightly annoyed how some people seeked to discredit all suspicion against Lottie despite the fact she was possibly the person against whom there was presented the biggest amound of rational points thus far.
Guilty of expressing concern over possible Lottie lynch:
- Izzy (first)
- Greenie (although she voted her herself, quite fishy)
- Nogrod (see more below, did this twice btw)
- Legate (dislikes the smoothness of the emerging Lottie wagon - a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky... anyway Mr L himself voted Lottie.)
- Shasta
- Sally ("I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her." That is perfectly fine, but later she starts a massive operastion Save Private Lottie, which seems rather fishy - like a wolf who tries to look good.)
- Brinn (amidst general wishy-washy warning against bandwagons)
Guilty of ignoring/discrediting the "proof" against Lottie:
- Nogrod (well might be a bit misleading to place him here but I don't like him calling me and Greenie's votes as "rapid lynching queue" while we had been suspecting Lottie for some time already and just had to go to sleep around the same time, later he said there was too much opportunism involved. From whose part, would you clarify?)
- Boro (called it hogwash for obvious reasons!)
- Zil ("this push against Lottie looks bad" - oh dear, by that point more people had expressed concern over the possible lynch of Lottie than voted or spoken for voting for her , later flip-flops on which is more evil: Lottie herself or the wagon, ends up voting neither.)
- Lottie (takes it as another Day1 wagon against her innocent self, but we can maybe forgive that... ha.)
- Shasta ("reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb" - admitted, but what better reasoning was there around at that time? when I went to sleep, it was in the end of page 2 and Day1 ended on page 6 so I missed quite a lot of discussion... and later Shasta calls voting Lottie bandwagoning on Fea's vote, which is at least from my part absolute nonsense because I was 100% sure Fea'd come back and retract)
- Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")
- Nienna (all her reaction to the points against Lottie: "suspicious bandwagon"... great.)
- Sally and Izzy (Not otherwise, but they discredited Legate's vote. I wouldn't think this too bad for I too raised some eyebrows when I read his vote even though I knew he had had points against her earlier. Still, I'm inclined to think he's not evil.)
- Glirdan (says the bandwagon is ridiculous and asks why get rid of Lottie since she's good at spotting wolves... really, most of us are good at that at our best, and should we lynch those who aren't just to ensure they'll never learn?)
Okay, forgive my slightly personal approach here, but I really think the massive discrediting was slightly weird (and I didn't like it because I can admit I was wrong about Lottie but I don't want to admit I had ridiculous grounds for voting her 'cos I didn't), and can't be all honest (or then some of you guys are a flock of chickens). Looking at this has been helpful for me, though, because now I have some suspects: Greenie, Nog, Zil, Brinn, Shasta, Sally. I bet there are at least one or two wolves among those.
PS. it's interesting Nogrod's very concerned about all the suspicion against Lottie still he is suspicious of her himself...

Fea's vote is so weird she has to be bad.
Skip gave the first vote early on. He grounded his suspicion well although I disagree with what he said.
Nogrod followed, suspecting Fea is sending or receiving cobbler hints. I must say that when I first read his posts I thought he was making mountains out of molehills once again, but it was proven he was right in associating Fea with cobblers (even if he did it for the wrong reasons)!
Brinn is the third, her grounds for voting are mostly the fact that she dislikes Fea's vote (more than suspects it).
Boro votes to save Lottie.
Lottie saves to vote herself.
Conclusions? The fact that Fea got lynched was really random. I don't think we can make much out of this.

Oi! Evil Greenie! Must die!
Shasta starts, says "I don't like bandwagons, I don't like lynching Lottie first constantly, I don't see what's so suspicious about her, and I especially don't like votes made apologetically." People criticised this vote came out of nowhere, but I think it actually has better grounds than many later votes, although I personally disagree with some stuff he says. It's not a very suspicious vote, except maybe exactly because it looks so good and "fresh" and maybe wants to abuse the anti-anti-Lottie mood...
Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.


edit: xed with everybody

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Lottie - I believe her claim.

Quite innocent
Izzy - as quite often of late, she seems to me the voice of reason and independent-thinking. Some points of hers late yesterDay made me slightly restless, but I think it was simply because we disagreed.
Agan - speaks sense and is sharp, seems genuine. However, you never know of her and I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.
Skip - he seems very careful, but I would interpret it as the carefulness of a new player rather than the carefulness of a wolf, at least for now.

Can't tell
Legate - I know I just said I think him innocent, but the posts I cross-posted with looked really fishy, sort of trying to look nice, playact he didn't vote for Lottie yesterDay (and give the most dangerous vote despite his judgement) and now try to be buddybuddy with her. Dislike. Anyway, I need more time to think.
Greenie - I agree her apologetic/pessimistic way of voting was weird, but we must not forget she did suspect Lottie all along. Besides, I'm starting to feel defensive for her since she always gets this kind of suspicion in the beginning, but on the other hand, I'm a bit annoyed that she won't probably be much around toDay either. Grr. Hmm, discarding all mixed sisterly feelings, I can't really judge her yet, that's why she's here.
Wintywinty - as long as he keeps to IC arguments, it's impossible to judge him.
Shasta - I don't know what to make out of him. He seems to think from kind of a quirky point of view, but he isn't necessarily evil.
Morsul - I tend to disagree with him on everything but I'm not sure what it makes him.
Nienna - however much I disagree with him and however much I irrationally suspect her everytime, I must say her actions towards then end of Day1 looked quite innocent. In any case she's a hard nut(ter) to crack.

Slightly suspicious
Nogrod - I definitely don't like his actions towas Lottie and her wagon yesterDay, and his vote was weird (meaning uncharacteristic). However, I tend to disagree and get annoyed with him even when he's innocent, and it goes exactly this way, so I don't want to make quick judgements.
Mira - I remember I suspected her yesterDay, but I have forgotten the reason. Should probably check. I know she had RL reasons to be away yesterDay but it doesn't make her any less quiet and creepy.
Brinn - I don't like her careful and slightly hypocritical-seeming statements, but that's how I interpret and suspect her all the time. In any case, her protest-like vote for Fea and discrediting all the points against Lottie make her someone to watch for me.

Suspicious
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.
Sally - her Operation Save Private Lottie looks bad, as does the throwaway vote and general wishy-washyness.
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)


edit: xed with everybody again

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.

And I'm more than happy to give it. I admittedly voted Greenie based on no real suspicion of my own. I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her. I really didn't want to vote for Fea because she hadn't posted much and her one vote looked like something that an innocent-Fea would do just to shake things up and get some discussion going. That she was the cobbler only helped solidify this mind frame I'm thinking. I also chose Greenie because at the time (and it was like a minute before deadline) that was who it felt like we decided we could get lynched. There was obviously poor communication, though, as you can see from the votes being all over the place (and all cross-posted) that we almost got Lottie lynched anyway.

On other matters:

I'm with Lottie right now in saying that Sally is screaming wolf to me. I thought so too at the end of yesterDay but we decided we didn't have enough votes to get her lynched. She'll be getting my vote today unless something drastic happens.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).

Yep that is what I was confused about. All better now.

I think Lommy has a point about timezones and I admit that in the beginning of the Day Lottie was looking a little suspicious but I wanted to give her some time to make herself not-suspicious (which she did) but I could understand why some people who had to go to bed early may have voted for her. This is not saying that there can't be an early-to-bed wolf on the bandwagon too just that I could understand some of the votes.

In a bit I'll be leaving for a few hours but then I'll be back.

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves? I'm having problem figuring out the role Fea would try to play.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves?

No.

ps. Nienna looks innocent now, I liked that post.

[skip spence]

Let's see then... as this is very bewildering to me I will focus on the tangibles. Fea was lynched and turned out to be the cobbler.

We know that Boro was innocent but now he's dead. Lottie claims to be his Shiriff-partner, which seems to clear her, I agree. Boro took a bullet for a friend, and we should salute him for that.

Ok so from the wolves' perspective it did not matter if Fea or Lottie was lynched? They wouldn't care either way, it's all good.

So any wolf yet to vote would probably keep a low profile when it looked like either one of those two would die, you know act wishy-washy, and then come up with some half-decent explanation to vote for any random person.

Glirdy and Nienna seem to fall into that category. They both seem to have voted for someone unlikely to get lynched almost apologetically just to glide along unnoticed. But, heck, I don't know...

I'm not accusing you of anything... yet.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Popping in for one post while waiting for my fiance to return.

I voted because I thought it'd be the only time I could. Second... well there is no second.