WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Thinlómien]

*ahem*

Okay, wagons

- the Lottie-wagon
- the "I'm so concerned Loslote will be lynched, look at this unreasoned crowd against her" wagon
- the sudden Greenie-wagon
- the victorious Fea-wagon

There's something wrong with Lottie...
I didn't look at this wagon through and through, but it seems to me rather simple. A crowd of people living in Finland had been suspecting Lottie (among others or then just mostly her) during the Day and partly agreed with each others points and then they had to go to sleep and vote, around the same time. Most of them (me, Greenie & Legate) chose to vottie (hahaha a typo but let's leave it means "vote Lottie", obv.), some (Aganzir) didn't. Conclusions? If you ask me, I don't think the wagon is necessarily evil. After all, I thought we had good points against Lottie even though they turned out to be wrong, and everybody had a bit of their own grounds so no one was following others blindly. But of course, the Lottie wagon doesn't make us innocent either. What can we conclude, then? At least this: please people, don't mislead yourselves by concluding I must be more innocent than Legate or Greenie because of the placement of my vote. I think we would all have voted Lottie, whatever the order of our votes, but I just happened to decide to go to sleep first.

Eee! Lottie is an easy lynch and people are voting her for bad grounds! Oo, we're all gonna die!
So what's wrong here? Lottie might be an easy Day1 lynch (I don't remember her fate in the games I've played with her so I can't verify this but I trust it if you say so), but the grounds for voting her weren't lousy - even though she's now proven innocent. It makes me slightly annoyed how some people seeked to discredit all suspicion against Lottie despite the fact she was possibly the person against whom there was presented the biggest amound of rational points thus far.
Guilty of expressing concern over possible Lottie lynch:
- Izzy (first)
- Greenie (although she voted her herself, quite fishy)
- Nogrod (see more below, did this twice btw)
- Legate (dislikes the smoothness of the emerging Lottie wagon - a question: am I reading a totally different game than you others?! for what I've seen, there was the joke Fea vote which seemed like an obvious to be retracted vote, my and Greenie's votes, Sally's suspicion and Agan's suspicion and vote for someone else than Lottie... ..what? should we start suspecting Sally now? she's the only one whose approach could be called "smooth" or sneaky... anyway Mr L himself voted Lottie.)
- Shasta
- Sally ("I think Lottie's suspicious, but I get sick of Day One lynching her." That is perfectly fine, but later she starts a massive operastion Save Private Lottie, which seems rather fishy - like a wolf who tries to look good.)
- Brinn (amidst general wishy-washy warning against bandwagons)
Guilty of ignoring/discrediting the "proof" against Lottie:
- Nogrod (well might be a bit misleading to place him here but I don't like him calling me and Greenie's votes as "rapid lynching queue" while we had been suspecting Lottie for some time already and just had to go to sleep around the same time, later he said there was too much opportunism involved. From whose part, would you clarify?)
- Boro (called it hogwash for obvious reasons!)
- Zil ("this push against Lottie looks bad" - oh dear, by that point more people had expressed concern over the possible lynch of Lottie than voted or spoken for voting for her , later flip-flops on which is more evil: Lottie herself or the wagon, ends up voting neither.)
- Lottie (takes it as another Day1 wagon against her innocent self, but we can maybe forgive that... ha.)
- Shasta ("reasoning on the bandwagon isn't superb" - admitted, but what better reasoning was there around at that time? when I went to sleep, it was in the end of page 2 and Day1 ended on page 6 so I missed quite a lot of discussion... and later Shasta calls voting Lottie bandwagoning on Fea's vote, which is at least from my part absolute nonsense because I was 100% sure Fea'd come back and retract)
- Brinn (her selective memory remembers the early nonsense-points against Lottie, but not the later and more serious ones... how convenient, given that every time someone gets more than one vote it's a bandwagon and you have to cry "evil!")
- Nienna (all her reaction to the points against Lottie: "suspicious bandwagon"... great.)
- Sally and Izzy (Not otherwise, but they discredited Legate's vote. I wouldn't think this too bad for I too raised some eyebrows when I read his vote even though I knew he had had points against her earlier. Still, I'm inclined to think he's not evil.)
- Glirdan (says the bandwagon is ridiculous and asks why get rid of Lottie since she's good at spotting wolves... really, most of us are good at that at our best, and should we lynch those who aren't just to ensure they'll never learn?)
Okay, forgive my slightly personal approach here, but I really think the massive discrediting was slightly weird (and I didn't like it because I can admit I was wrong about Lottie but I don't want to admit I had ridiculous grounds for voting her 'cos I didn't), and can't be all honest (or then some of you guys are a flock of chickens). Looking at this has been helpful for me, though, because now I have some suspects: Greenie, Nog, Zil, Brinn, Shasta, Sally. I bet there are at least one or two wolves among those.
PS. it's interesting Nogrod's very concerned about all the suspicion against Lottie still he is suspicious of her himself...

Fea's vote is so weird she has to be bad.
Skip gave the first vote early on. He grounded his suspicion well although I disagree with what he said.
Nogrod followed, suspecting Fea is sending or receiving cobbler hints. I must say that when I first read his posts I thought he was making mountains out of molehills once again, but it was proven he was right in associating Fea with cobblers (even if he did it for the wrong reasons)!
Brinn is the third, her grounds for voting are mostly the fact that she dislikes Fea's vote (more than suspects it).
Boro votes to save Lottie.
Lottie saves to vote herself.
Conclusions? The fact that Fea got lynched was really random. I don't think we can make much out of this.

Oi! Evil Greenie! Must die!
Shasta starts, says "I don't like bandwagons, I don't like lynching Lottie first constantly, I don't see what's so suspicious about her, and I especially don't like votes made apologetically." People criticised this vote came out of nowhere, but I think it actually has better grounds than many later votes, although I personally disagree with some stuff he says. It's not a very suspicious vote, except maybe exactly because it looks so good and "fresh" and maybe wants to abuse the anti-anti-Lottie mood...
Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.


edit: xed with everybody

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Lottie - I believe her claim.

Quite innocent
Izzy - as quite often of late, she seems to me the voice of reason and independent-thinking. Some points of hers late yesterDay made me slightly restless, but I think it was simply because we disagreed.
Agan - speaks sense and is sharp, seems genuine. However, you never know of her and I don't like her picking a fight with Lottie the Known Innocent.
Skip - he seems very careful, but I would interpret it as the carefulness of a new player rather than the carefulness of a wolf, at least for now.

Can't tell
Legate - I know I just said I think him innocent, but the posts I cross-posted with looked really fishy, sort of trying to look nice, playact he didn't vote for Lottie yesterDay (and give the most dangerous vote despite his judgement) and now try to be buddybuddy with her. Dislike. Anyway, I need more time to think.
Greenie - I agree her apologetic/pessimistic way of voting was weird, but we must not forget she did suspect Lottie all along. Besides, I'm starting to feel defensive for her since she always gets this kind of suspicion in the beginning, but on the other hand, I'm a bit annoyed that she won't probably be much around toDay either. Grr. Hmm, discarding all mixed sisterly feelings, I can't really judge her yet, that's why she's here.
Wintywinty - as long as he keeps to IC arguments, it's impossible to judge him.
Shasta - I don't know what to make out of him. He seems to think from kind of a quirky point of view, but he isn't necessarily evil.
Morsul - I tend to disagree with him on everything but I'm not sure what it makes him.
Nienna - however much I disagree with him and however much I irrationally suspect her everytime, I must say her actions towards then end of Day1 looked quite innocent. In any case she's a hard nut(ter) to crack.

Slightly suspicious
Nogrod - I definitely don't like his actions towas Lottie and her wagon yesterDay, and his vote was weird (meaning uncharacteristic). However, I tend to disagree and get annoyed with him even when he's innocent, and it goes exactly this way, so I don't want to make quick judgements.
Mira - I remember I suspected her yesterDay, but I have forgotten the reason. Should probably check. I know she had RL reasons to be away yesterDay but it doesn't make her any less quiet and creepy.
Brinn - I don't like her careful and slightly hypocritical-seeming statements, but that's how I interpret and suspect her all the time. In any case, her protest-like vote for Fea and discrediting all the points against Lottie make her someone to watch for me.

Suspicious
Glirdan - weird comment against the Lottie wagon, had all the wagoned-for people on his suspicion list late yesterDay yet still made a throwaway vote and refused to take sides.
Sally - her Operation Save Private Lottie looks bad, as does the throwaway vote and general wishy-washyness.
Zil - he got slightly jumpy over Nogrod's accusations against him (although in his defense I have to say those crusades are painful to withstand). But what really makes me suspicious is how he demonized the threat against Lottie and flip-flopped on which side was more evil, Lottie or the wagon against her, and then ended up voting very weirdly. (Although, the vote was so weird it could even speak in his favour. Wouldn't he just have voted me or Legate if he was a wolf?)


edit: xed with everybody again

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Nienna votes her quite out of the blue, and so does Lottie, who later switches to save herself.
Conclusions? Not much either, would like to hear Nienna's reasoning.

And I'm more than happy to give it. I admittedly voted Greenie based on no real suspicion of my own. I was pretty confident at that point that Lottie was innocent and was willing to vote for mostly anyone to save her. I really didn't want to vote for Fea because she hadn't posted much and her one vote looked like something that an innocent-Fea would do just to shake things up and get some discussion going. That she was the cobbler only helped solidify this mind frame I'm thinking. I also chose Greenie because at the time (and it was like a minute before deadline) that was who it felt like we decided we could get lynched. There was obviously poor communication, though, as you can see from the votes being all over the place (and all cross-posted) that we almost got Lottie lynched anyway.

On other matters:

I'm with Lottie right now in saying that Sally is screaming wolf to me. I thought so too at the end of yesterDay but we decided we didn't have enough votes to get her lynched. She'll be getting my vote today unless something drastic happens.

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Nienna at #226 "has stopped having any sort of idea what is going on". (May be just be referring to Sally's Game reference, however).

Yep that is what I was confused about. All better now.

I think Lommy has a point about timezones and I admit that in the beginning of the Day Lottie was looking a little suspicious but I wanted to give her some time to make herself not-suspicious (which she did) but I could understand why some people who had to go to bed early may have voted for her. This is not saying that there can't be an early-to-bed wolf on the bandwagon too just that I could understand some of the votes.

In a bit I'll be leaving for a few hours but then I'll be back.

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Edit: x-ed with Skip -- and to answer his question the wolves don't ever know the role of the cobbler.

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves? I'm having problem figuring out the role Fea would try to play.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by skip spence

But does the cobbler know the identity of the wolves?

No.

ps. Nienna looks innocent now, I liked that post.

[skip spence]

Let's see then... as this is very bewildering to me I will focus on the tangibles. Fea was lynched and turned out to be the cobbler.

We know that Boro was innocent but now he's dead. Lottie claims to be his Shiriff-partner, which seems to clear her, I agree. Boro took a bullet for a friend, and we should salute him for that.

Ok so from the wolves' perspective it did not matter if Fea or Lottie was lynched? They wouldn't care either way, it's all good.

So any wolf yet to vote would probably keep a low profile when it looked like either one of those two would die, you know act wishy-washy, and then come up with some half-decent explanation to vote for any random person.

Glirdy and Nienna seem to fall into that category. They both seem to have voted for someone unlikely to get lynched almost apologetically just to glide along unnoticed. But, heck, I don't know...

I'm not accusing you of anything... yet.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Nienna

Morsul's vote for Sally already toDay looks very opportunistic. To me it feels like a wolf realizing that our known innocent is pretty much going to lead a crusade against a fellow wolf and wanting to seem more innocent by being the first to join.

Popping in for one post while waiting for my fiance to return.

I voted because I thought it'd be the only time I could. Second... well there is no second.