Tolkien's Influence on Babylon 5

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks for that link, davem! That certainly sums up not only the Tolkien references, but also a good many of the others. It also shows that though there are parallels, there is no direct copying of characters or plot elements. In that respect JMS is like Tolkien, who spoke of the cauldron of story, with the various ingredients bringing their flavour to the soup.

I can understand your apprehension of going back to something and being disappointed. It can happen, but I am finding that rewatching B5 is quite the opposite - I can now appreciate the depths of the story and dialogues even more than at first viewing. Also, for me, living in a country in which virtually every TV show and movie is dubbed before it reaches us, I am tremendously enjoying hearing the original voices and dialogues on DVD.

As to the CGI effects, they may be 15 years old and no longer state-of-the-art, but I think they look good enough not to disturb the flow of the story, and the latter is what matters to me.

I hope the Wikipedia list will not discourage others from posting their personal impressions of Tolkien influences on B5 - please continue!

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Slicker technology doesn't necessarily equate to a better all around final product. As proof of that to myself, I just spent ten minutes typing in a reply on my iPad, only to accidentally touch a wrong spot on the screen and entirely lose what I had typed. For me, the special effects in B5 that are the worst to watch are the ones that weren't very good to begin with. Joe's stories are invariably character and plot driven; the effects are there to support them; they do not overwhelm to the point where they drive the story to accommodate vast amounts of special effects. I cannot say the same of other directors *cough* Jackson *cough* who become so wrapped up in the spectacle of what can be done with CGI, they abandon a perfectly good story and characters to the mercies of FX. I have long wished that Joe had been the one to adapt LotR for the big screen, because he had already proved his skill in dealing respectfully with the work of others (and IMHO, he already had more love for and respect of Tolkien's works). But that's another kettle of fish. The series still views quite well.

It occurs to me that my earlier analogy of Lorien as Eru/Valar can be drawn more broadly to encompass much of the structure of B5. The Vorlons and Shadows are like the Ainur, attempting to guide the younger races to their own purposes for good or evil. The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences).

And let us never forget that "It was the Third Age of Mankind." That hit me over the head right from the get-go.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

As proof of that to myself, I just spent ten minutes typing in a reply on my iPad, only to accidentally touch a wrong spot on the screen and entirely lose what I had typed.

Use Firefox or Chrome with the Lazarus extension, which will recover your 'lost' text with a click!

Anyway....

The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences).
.

Long time since I saw the series, but didn't it turn out that The Vorlons were in their own way as 'bad' as the Shadows - the Vorlons took the principle of ORDER to an extreme, such that they desired complete control over everything (similar to the Elves with their 'embalming' tendencies) & the Shadows devoted themselves to bringing about CHAOS, & this effectively brought about the long war in which the other races were caught up? I suppose this is not very Tolkienesque, in that the conflict is between Order & Chaos, rather than between Good & Evil.

Unless my recall is wrong.....

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

No, your memory is correct, davem. The Vorlons wanted Law and Order, and the Shadows believed in evolution through Chaos. The analogy is not perfect, of course, since Joe wasn't trying to duplicate Tolkien, and may have only been influenced by his love of it, in this respect. Even so, to some of the Elves -- like Feanor and those who chafed under the rule and the apparent restrictions of the Valar -- they were just as bad as Melkor and his lot. The only difference was their technique, in that Melkor was right up front with his lies and manipulation, while to those who disliked them, the Valar acted more subtly, puppet-masters acting behind the scenes with the ultimate (apparent) goal of control.

And alas, I don't believe that Firefox is even available for the iPad. Time will tell.

[Nerwen]

Fascinating thread.

I never watched Babylon 5 regularly– mainly because it was mostly screened in the middle of the night– and so I have little knowledge of the overall story, but even so I noticed a lot of Tolkien parellels. I actually thought I might be imagining things.



*You had to be very dedicated and/or insomniac to follow any SF series here when I was a teenager, let me tell you.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

davem, you're right about the contrast between order and chaos as being the definitive difference between the Vorlons and Shadows (as Ibrîn already confirmed) - and neither is good when imposed upon others. It reminds me of the Valar and their bumbling efforts to "help" the Children. Freeing themselves from both influences is what the younger races need to continue their development - a very Tolkienesque thought.

Interestingly, both of the older races are also defined by the questions they ask: for the Vorlons, it is, "Who are you?", for the Shadows, "What do you want?" The former reminds me forcibly of a (rare) serious Tom Bombadil quote:

Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?

Bombadil is perhaps like B5's Lorien in some ways - calling himself Eldest, yet allowing the Hobbits to make their own choices and mistakes, only assisting them when absolutely necessary and then leaving them to go their own way. Ibrîn, I don't see Lorien as an Eru parallel - he appears to be a created being and leaves in the end. I would instead see elements of Gandalf in his character - as always in the series, there are no copies, just influences. And that again is like Tolkien's own story development - using previous influences and weaving them together in a new way to create something unique.

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with you that it would have been interesting to see what JMS would have made of the LotR movie!! Perhaps he would not have been interested in bringing someone else's (sub-)created world to the screen, what with his own imagination being filled with the scope of his world.

There is another parallel in the development of the plot: the victory over the older races is a moral one, based on a confrontation with knowledge, rather than primarily military in the end. That is very like the end of Sauron's realm. And like that victory, it does not end the tale; there is still the heroes' own world which must be cleaned up. The similarities to the Scouring are there, though on a different scale.

B5 was there before the LotR movies, but of course the similarities in story bring up parallels in the visual settings and the casting of the characters. For example, I've been thinking that I would have liked to see Jason Carter (the actor who played the Ranger Marcus Cole) as Strider - he would have brought more dignity to King Aragorn, I imagine.

I'm enjoying all of your contributions!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I've found another online article comparing B5 and LotR here. It goes into the general themes more than into specific details, which makes it very interesting to read. Here's a central passage:

...Babylon 5 might justly be called "an atheist's answer to Tolkien". All the same themes are there: the dangers of power for both the mature and immature, the drive to grow up into what one can be by virtue of one's nature, the inexpressibly moving human attempt to engage with realities that transcend all understanding, the epic, ages long conflict between right and wrong, the passing of one Age into another with deep, saddening loss of beauty but great hope for the future, noble heroes and baseborn traitors, fierce wars and faithful loves, courage and fear, wisdom and utter foolishness.

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

... The Vorlons and Shadows are like the Ainur, attempting to guide the younger races to their own purposes for good or evil. The Minbari are much like the Elves, the Firstborn, who went to war against the evil Ainur, the Shadows, long ago, and only survived because of the intervention of a human who became an Elf (Minbari -- I'd never thought of Valen/Sinclair as Earendil before, but I can see some influences)...

In the episode 'Late Delivery From Avalon', with Michael York, at the end Marcus speculates that if Delen is the Lady of the Lake, then Kosh must be Merlin. Here the two stories are drawing on the common source of Arthurian legend, and Kosh as Gandalf would make sense if you consider he's one of the few of his race, like the maiar, to interact with the younger races.