"Lord of the Rings" sequel!

[radagast]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal. Hopefully the next generations of Tolkiens will either pick up the standard, or let someone else. To continue a story into The Fourth Age is not beyond the skill of a good writer, what is though, is to do it like Tolkien, who in my view was unique.

Do you have a source about Christopher Tolkien not wanted anymore Middle Earth stories written? I am interested because I have some ideas for such a story, taking place in the Fourth Age. After working on the ideas, I was surprised to find that Tolkien's notes supported some of my plot ideas.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Well... Fanfics are fine as long as they stay fanfics, but if you are asking what I think you are asking, there's a thing called a 'copyright' in the USA. Of course you can't write a story based on Tolkien's universe and expect it to get published, Radagast. If you really wanted to do so and believe that your genius could match that of Tolkien's, then you *could* contact the Tolkien Estates and see if Christopher Tolkien would allow you to write a book based on the Tolkienesque universe. The Asimov Estates did, (though I reserve my judgment on whether it was a good call). But I think you need to be a pretty famous writer for C. Tolkien to even consider the request.

PS. By the way, you could try out this idea of yours at our RPG forums. It would be fun to have another roleplayer around, especially someone who writes well.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I believe that in one of the HoME books -- in the chapter dealing with "The New Shadow," JRRT's own abandoned start to a sequel -- it is said that the reason he gave it up was because he felt it would not really add to the mythical/legendary aspect of his body of work. As I recall, he felt it would be just another adventure story, derivative of what had already been written and therefore redundant and superfluous. It would have been writing more just to write more, to satisfy his publishers and readers but not his own designs in creating and writing about his world.

I tend to agree with him. More adventures are things for the fan writers. A true sequel should be something more mythological in nature, bringing the cycle -- which Tolkien created to be a mythology for England -- another significant step closer to the historical world. The "new shadow" would probably not be another incarnation of Sauron, since Tolkien was clear that in the destruction of the Ring, so much of him was expended, he would never rise again. It could, however, be another fallen Maia -- or more likely, I think, fallen Men attempting to emulate the Dark Lords of previous ages. Inevitably, the dynasty of Aragorn and his heirs will fall. It did not survive into historical times. But why not? What happened that so totally obliterated evidence of that Golden Age in the distant past? Wars, pestilence, nature -- all of the above?

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Inevitably, the dynasty of Aragorn and his heirs will fall. It did not survive into historical times. But why not? What happened that so totally obliterated evidence of that Golden Age in the distant past? Wars, pestilence, nature -- all of the above?

The loss of the Sea of Faith, perhaps. Let me quote Matthew Arnold:

"The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world."

We no longer believe in the Firstborn or the sons of Ainu, and as they faded from the hearts of men, they have, perhaps, faded from Middle Earth as well.

[garm]

"Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal."

He didn't you know. Neither is Christopher in any way Gollum- like.

If Tolkien really had wanted others to write stories set in his world, he could have forgone copyrighting his books; made them 'public domain'. He did not. What's more, it was Tolkien himself who set up his Estate, whose purpose is to carry out Tolkien's wishes as set out in his will. (this is the function of anyone's estate; including yours and mine, if we so wish). One of Tolkien's wishes was for copyright to remain with his family.

What Tolkien wrote was that he left all of his unpublished works - his 'literary assets' - to his trustees, requesting them to allow Christopher full access, "in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full powers to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part..." etc.

If Christopher were Gollum-like, we would not have Tolkien's translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo (1975). Nor The Silmarillion (1977), nor any other of Tolkien's posthumously published works. Nor would Christopher have given permission for other scholars to edit his father's works; such as Beowulf and the Critics (Michael Drout) nor Roverandom (Hammond and Scull), nor create such a visually stunning work as 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator'. (ditto)

Name-calling is not very constructive, don't you think? - and hardly helps an already tottery claim.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by garm

Name-calling is not very constructive, don't you think? - and hardly helps an already tottery claim.

I think he was joking, Garm. I mean, who could dislike C. Tolkien when he gave us "The Children of Hurin"? +drools all over the pages+

[skytree]

Did Tolkien ever discuss whether the Blue Wizards departed Middle Earth? One or both could have arisen as a serious threat on the level of Sauron, or at least Sauruman.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skytree

Did Tolkien ever discuss whether the Blue Wizards departed Middle Earth? One or both could have arisen as a serious threat on the level of Sauron, or at least Sauruman.

T. wrote in a 1958 letter that he really didn't know what happened to them, since they weren't involved with affairs in the west of ME. However, he surmised:

....they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and Sounth (far out of Númenórean range): missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

Letter # 211

From that, it appears that whatever works they did where they were apparently lasted a long time, but they didn't found anything that would threaten peace in the west. Since their failure is said to be different from Saruman's, I would think that another indication that whatever they were up to they had no designs on conquering ME.

As for their departing into the West, my opinion would be 'no'. I think there's a reason we see only Gandalf of the Istari taking ship at the end of ROTK; he was the only one who had remained faithful to his task. As Gandalf said, the Third Age was his age; he was sent to be Sauron's enemy. After Sauron was defeated, he had no more business in Middle-earth and knew it was time for him to leave.
Those of the Istari who didn't fall on the level on Saruman, but instead merely became 'distracted' (the Blue Wizards and Radagast) had still failed their mission, and thus miss the ship that was to take them home.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by skytree

Did Tolkien ever discuss whether the Blue Wizards departed Middle Earth? One or both could have arisen as a serious threat on the level of Sauron, or at least Sauruman.

hmmmm...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

T. wrote in a 1958 letter that he really didn't know what happened to them, since they weren't involved with affairs in the west of ME. However, he surmised:



Letter # 211

From that, it appears that whatever works they did where they were apparently lasted a long time, but they didn't found anything that would threaten peace in the west. Since their failure is said to be different from Saruman's, I would think that another indication that whatever they were up to they had no designs on conquering ME.

As for their departing into the West, my opinion would be 'no'. I think there's a reason we see only Gandalf of the Istari taking ship at the end of ROTK; he was the only one who had remained faithful to his task. As Gandalf said, the Third Age was his age; he was sent to be Sauron's enemy. After Sauron was defeated, he had no more business in Middle-earth and knew it was time for him to leave.
Those of the Istari who didn't fall on the level on Saruman, but instead merely became 'distracted' (the Blue Wizards and Radagast) had still failed their mission, and thus miss the ship that was to take them home.

Other writings of Tolkien indicate that the Blue Wizards' mission took them into the East and that they did not fail.

[radagast]

Originally Posted by garm

"Although Tolkien stated that he wanted the story to continue and grow, Christopher 'Gollum' Tolkien doesn't, and guards the legacy with zeal."

He didn't you know. Neither is Christopher in any way Gollum- like.

If Tolkien really had wanted others to write stories set in his world, he could have forgone copyrighting his books; made them 'public domain'. He did not. What's more, it was Tolkien himself who set up his Estate, whose purpose is to carry out Tolkien's wishes as set out in his will. (this is the function of anyone's estate; including yours and mine, if we so wish). One of Tolkien's wishes was for copyright to remain with his family.

What Tolkien wrote was that he left all of his unpublished works - his 'literary assets' - to his trustees, requesting them to allow Christopher full access, "in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full powers to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part..." etc.

If Christopher were Gollum-like, we would not have Tolkien's translations of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Pearl, and Sir Orfeo (1975). Nor The Silmarillion (1977), nor any other of Tolkien's posthumously published works. Nor would Christopher have given permission for other scholars to edit his father's works; such as Beowulf and the Critics (Michael Drout) nor Roverandom (Hammond and Scull), nor create such a visually stunning work as 'JRR Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator'. (ditto)

Name-calling is not very constructive, don't you think? - and hardly helps an already tottery claim.

Do not copyrights pertain only to published works? There have been other fantasies that have mentioned the word "hobbit" for instance. The copyrights should pertain only to all of Tolkien's works.

And in regards to what could be written, after I started writing down my ideas, I found that several aspects had already been mentioned by Tolkien. Copyrights are not for an infinite length of time either.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by radagast

Do not copyrights pertain only to published works? There have been other fantasies that have mentioned the word "hobbit" for instance. The copyrights should pertain only to all of Tolkien's works.

I'm clearly being a little dense today, but I don't quite get the connection between those two sentences.

For the first: what are you trying to say? If you mean you can always write fan fiction as long as you don't try to publish it or make money from it, well, yes. What's the problem?

For the second– are you sure about that? D&D has "halflings", but I can't recall "hobbit" being used anywhere but Tolkien. Certainly not in novels.

Originally Posted by radagast

And in regards to what could be written, after I started writing down my ideas, I found that several aspects had already been mentioned by Tolkien. Copyrights are not for an infinite length of time either.

No, but they have a fairly long shelf-life.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For the second– are you sure about that? D&D has "halflings", but I can't recall "hobbit" being used anywhere but Tolkien. Certainly not in novels.

Being older than the hills has its advantages. The earliest version of D&D did indeed use "hobbits," and there was legal wrangling over it. Tolkien invented the word, and he had rights to it and its use in profit-making materials. There was also discussion about "Orc," but it was determined that there were legendary uses of the term that long predated LotR, so the game still uses it. "Halfling" was, I believe, a compromise.

Copyright in the US is guaranteed by law, but there is no fixed limit set in the original legislature, so the term keeps getting changed. There is also the matter of trademark involved, since I believe many of the names associated with LotR were trademarked by Tolkien Enterprises (which, if I recall correctly, is part of how they remain involved with movie and licensing revenues no matter what studio makes the films). Trademark laws do not work in quite the same way as copyright laws. While it would be hard to win a fair use case of copyright infringement over a piece of fan fiction, trademark infringement could be quite easily proven. It's just not worth the effort when no profit is involved. But there are distinct limits to the term of trademark, and it must be defended or it lapses. The Refrigerator Corporation discovered that (they lost theirs), and there have been close calls with the Kleenex and Jell-o trademarks as well.