What is your heroic ideal?

[Thinlómien]

I seem to like the best the ones who are proud and hot-tempered but good-hearted and loyal, as well as good leaders. No wonder my favourites include such characters as Maedhros (who died, btw ), Boromir, Galadriel, Gandalf and Húrin. All of them are heroes, but they all have their flaws: Maedhros keeps the horrible oath he swore, Boromir is seduced by the Ring, Galadriel and Gandalf are tempted by the Ring's power to do good, Húrin's pride (in a way) causes the misfortune of his children and his bitterness gives out the secret city... A hero is not a hero if he's flawless and thus boring (although Finrod Felagund makes an exception here, he's just cool! )

[Folwren]

I really like the down to earth, simple heroes the best. Sam Gamgee is my favorite hero from LotR, and he's just so natural and down to earth. I also love Bilbo. Faramir is another favorite of mine, and I think that something both Faramir and Sam have in common is that neither of them are looking to become great or anything. They just want to do what is right, no matter the cost, really. And they care very deeply about the people they love.

By the way, Morm - Boromir acheived redemption by asking forgiveness at the end.

-- Folwren

[mark12_30]

Oh, I could write an essay on this one... perhaps I shall, one post at a time.

Let's start with Aragorn. He had his desires: marry Arwen, reign as king in Gondor. But first: he roamed the countryside anonymously for decades, just Doing Good: guarding those who needed guarding, protecting those who needed protection, hunting the enemy wherever he found darkness. THen the hunt for Gollum. Then back to guarding hobbits. Then escorting the hobbits to Rivendell... THen departing from Arwen (yet again) to head for Minas Tirith and glory: but because of losing Gandalf as they passed through Moria, choosing to cross the Anduin with Frodo, and forsake all that. THen when Frodo slipped away with Sam-- Aragorn went in search of Merry and Pippin rather than go to Gondor as he had planned. Self-denial, self-sacrifice. There's one.

Eomer and Faramir and Boromir and yet More to come.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

No wonder my favourites include such characters as Maedhros (who died, btw ), (...) And yeah, A hero is not a hero if he's flawless and thus boring (although Finrod Felagund makes an exception here, he's just cool!

I thought Maedhros was the one who got his hand cut off. Didn't he live to a long age, but always wielded his sword by his left hand better than his right? oh, yeah, I just remembered, he later threw himself into a chasm with his silmaril rather than to surrender it. Forgot that one.

I really like the down to earth, simple heroes the best. Sam Gamgee is my favorite hero from LotR

So does my boyfriend, for some unfathomable reason. Back in my younger days, I would have never understood that. I thought Sam too sappy and without a backbone, and probably had a crush on - (No, I shouldn't instill evil thoughts into the pure minds of the barrow-downers!) But now that I think back on it, I can finally understand the reason why so many people think Sam with his unswaying devotion and faithfulness is heroic. Tho' Beleg is perhaps a better candidate for your admiration, perhaps, since he was (1) faithful (2) died tragically. (Tragedy is awesome!) While my heroic ideal is irreversibly fixated on a tragic-flaw-leads-to-death concept, I am finding a newfound respect for Sam Gamgee as well.

He didn't just fight Uruks; he fought to protect Merry and Pippin. I'd also add that, considering the disparity between them and Boromir in importance, it seems an even more noble act for a distinguished scion of Gondor to lay down his life to protect two inconsequential hobbits.

I completely agree with you. He didn't die to save a golden-tressed maiden that he was in love with, or lords and ladies. He gave his life to save two little trembling hobbits who had no one else to protect them; a truly heroic deed.

[deagol]

I don't think Boromir's inability to withstand the lure of the Ring makes him any less heroic. He had the sad misfortune of being a plot device introduced for the express purpose of illustrating exactly that weakness in man. I've got to figure a guy like Boromir is destined to perish amid a burgeoning swath of slain orcs even under the best of circumstances. That he was able to go out on his own terms, valiantly undertaking an impossible task -- a metaphor for all of Gondor if ever there was one -- seems heroic enough to me. For me, heroism requires a clear choice, and LoTR complicates this because of the varying affects (or lack thereof) of the Ring upon each character and how it manipulates each individual according to his or her own stature and character (and lucky for Faramir that it did). In this context, it's hard not to recognize Sam as the most heroic figure in the saga. Not simply because he rises from the humblest of origins, but specifically because of those origins. I mean, who is the perfect foil for the Dark Lord, who likes nothing better than to see living things wither and die?

Why, a gardener, of course.

[Nogrod]

I'm not sure if all the people mean the same thing here with the "heroic ideal"...

Actually, now thinking of it, a "heroic ideal" sounds like something quite boring. The ideal hero eg. no flaws, no vices, no personality... Maybe Elrond?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not sure if all the people mean the same thing here with the "heroic ideal"...

Actually, now thinking of it, a "heroic ideal" sounds like something quite boring. The ideal hero eg. no flaws, no vices, no personality... Maybe Elrond?

For the last time, i.e., Nogrod, i.e.

What I would imagine when hearing "heroic ideal" is simple - some person whom I see and say "wow, this is a hero".

So in general, I would probably imagine some guy in shiny armor who killed seventy Glaurungs, but who apart from that was admirably kind and noble and all that. Even though there are more admirable things - and I would likely not pick my, how would you call it, "admirable person", from among those "heroes". But "hero" in this sense of the word to me means mainly somebody who is fighting his heavy battle and is admirable for the way he does that. Usually however, I think of physical battle (or at least of heroic deeds in the sense of Sam or Frodo). I would not think of Galadriel, for instance, or Gandalf, although both of them would be among my picks for the really most admirable characters of all or something (well... although at least in Galadriel's case that'd be based on a few particular decisions or deeds and then the sort of general attitude to things).

But if you asked me "hero", I might think of Boromir (since I already defended him up there) - and I consider his final redemption a part of the true heroism. You actually see very few of these guys putting their life at stake like this, resp. sacrificing themselves, basically. And what is bigger than to sacrifice oneself for the other? (Of course it is not such a clean matter with Boromir either, as he did not probably have much of a chance of winning, but it might have had the perspective of giving the Hobbits at least a bit of time to escape.)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

For the last time, i.e., Nogrod, i.e.

Heh. I actually know quite well what the abbreviations stand for from my own latin-studies but once you build the wrong habit it just seems to stick....

But maybe what I tried to point out was not so much about who you would call a hero, but who you would call an ideal hero... or heroic ideal as the title of the thread says.

And even in that case one should probably make the difference between the real life and phantasy-literature. I think RL heroes are of a quite different stock indeed. And quite luckily so (I'm not sure I would like to live in a world were the strongest would be the only candidates for heroism ).

[Folwren]

Eorl....out of curiosity (but not curiosity alone) I want to know how you can think that Sam has no backbone?

For your info, I do like Beleg. He was pretty awesome, too.

-- Folwren

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And even in that case one should probably make the difference between the real life and phantasy-literature. I think RL heroes are of a quite different stock indeed. And quite luckily so (I'm not sure I would like to live in a world were the strongest would be the only candidates for heroism ).

I would tend to agree with that, but even so, for me, some of Tolkien's strongest heroes are far from the mightiest. To me, an "ideal" hero is one that is accessible on a human or humane level (meaning that they need not be of the human race), and Tolkien provides them in LotR. Those that speak most strongly to me are ones like Gandalf and Frodo, who were faced with an insurmountable task, one which they knew full well they had little or no chance of completing successfully -- and they took in on nonetheless, seeing it through as far as they were able. The hero isn't necessarily the one who defeats the enemy personally. They are often the ones who make that defeat possible by others. They often are little rewarded for their efforts, if those efforts are even recognized, but their victory comes from the same source are their heroism: in hearts and spirits willing to make sacrifices for the good of others.