Of the Lady's Star-glass...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

I was reading the Grey Havens chapter in ROTK, and I noticed that the Phial of Galadriel was still glimmering and giving off light while Frodo's ship sailed for Valinor. How did her creation survive after the destruction of the One? Did not the lore state that all things wrought by the Three will fade should they be shorn of their powers? Yet the phial endured. Why?

[Mnemosyne]

Nothing ever said that the star-glass was wrought with the power of Nenya. Indeed its light comes from Earendil and his Silmaril--which were long, long before the Rings.

[Pitchwife]

I guess it depends on what exactly 'all things wrought by the Three' means. Is it 'everything ever made by the respective bearers', or only 'everything made by using the powers of the Rings'? The latter makes more sense to me - and if so, the question is whether Galadriel made any use of Nenya at all in making the Star-glass. I suppose a connection could be made between the Ring of Water and the water in the phial, but that seems a rather tenuous association to me. In itself, the feat of catching the light of Eärendil's star in a phial of water doesn't seem beyond the art and craft of the Elves without the help of any Ring - certainly not beyond that of a lore-wise Noldo like Galadriel (for precedents, see the blue Fëanorian lamps mentioned e.g. in the UT version of Tuor, and of course Fëanor's making of the Silmarils).
We should also remember that the light of the phial was actually the light of a Silmaril, and I'd think it quite probable that it somehow hallowed and preserved the vessel it was set in.

(x-ed with Mnemo, who more or less says the same in fewer words)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I guess it depends on what exactly 'all things wrought by the Three' means. Is it 'everything ever made by the respective bearers', or only 'everything made by using the powers of the Rings'? The latter makes more sense to me - and if so, the question is whether Galadriel made any use of Nenya at all in making the Star-glass. I suppose a connection could be made between the Ring of Water and the water in the phial, but that seems a rather tenuous association to me. In itself, the feat of catching the light of Eärendil's star in a phial of water doesn't seem beyond the art and craft of the Elves without the help of any Ring - certainly not beyond that of a lore-wise Noldo like Galadriel (for precedents, see the blue Fëanorian lamps mentioned e.g. in the UT version of Tuor, and of course Fëanor's making of the Silmarils).
We should also remember that the light of the phial was actually the light of a Silmaril, and I'd think it quite probable that it somehow hallowed and preserved the vessel it was set in.

As an additional indicator that the passing of the Three did not affect all works done by their Keepers, consider the gift of Galadriel to Sam.

'In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it'.

FOTR Farewell To Lórien

Sam did not make use of the gift until after the One had passed, yet the soil within the box had not lost its power to accelerate the plant growth in the Shire.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I guess it depends on what exactly 'all things wrought by the Three' means. Is it 'everything ever made by the respective bearers', or only 'everything made by using the powers of the Rings'? The latter makes more sense to me - and if so, the question is whether Galadriel made any use of Nenya at all in making the Star-glass. I suppose a connection could be made between the Ring of Water and the water in the phial, but that seems a rather tenuous association to me. In itself, the feat of catching the light of Eärendil's star in a phial of water doesn't seem beyond the art and craft of the Elves without the help of any Ring - certainly not beyond that of a lore-wise Noldo like Galadriel (for precedents, see the blue Fëanorian lamps mentioned e.g. in the UT version of Tuor, and of course Fëanor's making of the Silmarils).
We should also remember that the light of the phial was actually the light of a Silmaril, and I'd think it quite probable that it somehow hallowed and preserved the vessel it was set in.

(x-ed with Mnemo, who more or less says the same in fewer words)

The element of water and her ring Nenya could not have been an accidental connection. And I'm aware of other Noldors creating the Feanorian lamps. But the light of the Phial was more than ornamental. It had a spiritual power that saved Frodo from using the One near Minas Morgul and broke the will of the sentient Watchers to allow Sam passage. I don't remember these abilities being exhibited by the Silmaril in the 1st age, other than burning Morgoth's hands and Carcaroth's stomach (although Earendil's passage of the enchanted isles echos Sam's ordeal). But if it were truly the singular power of the Silmaril within the star-glass, why would it be powerless in the heart of Sauron's Realm? Surely this instance strongly suggests the connection with Nenya in the Phial's creation. The Phial seemed far more potent than any other light-related creations of the Noldor, save Feanor's Silmarils. Thus, if it ceased to give light in Mt. Doom, it must've been created with Nenya, for Sauron is mightier than Galadriel and Nenya.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Thus, if it ceased to give light in Mt. Doom, it must've been created with Nenya, for Sauron is mightier than Galadriel and Nenya.

Possibly....

But I'm going to go with "not necessarily."

The thing is, we don't know that the Phial was quenched by Sauron. I am going to contend that it wasn't. All that we know for sure is that it didn't work in Orodruin.

In other words--it may not have been Sauron's power at all that quenched the Phial, but the fact that it was in the heart of Orodruin. We know that Orodruin was a place of special power--that's why Sauron forged the Ring there. I wouldn't go so far as to cite the fact that it could destroy the Ring as evidence of its power, since that is tied to the fact that it was forged there, but it definitely seems to have been forged there because of a unique potency.

In Essay VII of "Myths Transformed" in Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien writes the very passage that gives us the title of that volume of the HoME, which I wish to quote:

Originally Posted by Essay VII

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' of physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of a similar sort to the operation of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was like to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, has as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect on their spirits.

As an aside, by the way, this is part of why Glorfindel as a resurrected Elf has something of an advantage over the regular Elves of Middle-earth, in my opinion. Anyway, going on farther, skipping over a bit,

Originally Posted by Essay VII

It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled - as all things could.)

My point here, by extrapolation, is that Morgoth's power was not disseminated equally in matter, but that it was stronger--and, I would suggest, not just stronger in some types of matter, but in some places, as well. This conjecture is, I think, supported by Sauron's special choice of Mt. Doom for the forging of the Ring, since it notes (between the two passages already quoted), that:

Originally Posted by Essay VII

It was this Morgoth-element in matter, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.

In other words--it was not, by this theory, the power of Sauron that quenched the Phial, but the power of Morgoth.

Now, I am aware that my "brilliant" theory suffers from the fact that the Silmarils were never dimmed throughout the long years of sitting in the Iron Crown... that we are told (though I think it a fair assumption). However, the Silmarils were the actual source of the Primeval Light (to use the terminology of Essay II of the same section, "Myths Transformed"--even though the essay's conclusions seem to have been mostly rejected, insofar as it attempts to propose a completely revised chronology, I think I can still use the term and the thought behind it), whereas it was only captured in the Phial.

I think there is a major difference in this fact, because otherwise the Phial would have been the Fourth Silmaril, different (less indestructible) in structure, but the same in terms of light, which is all the counts. It would also mean that the Silmarils would have had to have been broken to "reignite" the Two Trees, as in fact was required. Hence, I'm willing to say that I don't think the evidence of the Silmarils shining in the throne room of Angband disqualifies my theory... but that's just me.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In other words--it may not have been Sauron's power at all that quenched the Phial, but the fact that it was in the heart of Orodruin. We know that Orodruin was a place of special power--that's why Sauron forged the Ring there. I wouldn't go so far as to cite the fact that it could destroy the Ring as evidence of its power, since that is tied to the fact that it was forged there, but it definitely seems to have been forged there because of a unique potency.

The narrative in ROTK telling of Sam going inside the Mountain seems to indicate it was both Sauron and the volcano itself that caused the phial to diminish in power.

In his great need [Sam] drew out once more the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold in his trembling hand and threw no light into that stifling dark. He was come to the heart of the realm of Sauron and the forges of his ancient might, greatest in Middle-earth; all other powers were here subdued.

The inference is that some power, which could indeed have been something derived from Morgoth, combined with Sauron's might to keep the phial dark. The fact that the light from the Trees as contained in the Silmarils could not be darkened even in the presence of Morgoth, and the phial was dimmed in Mordor, can be explained, I think, along the lines of what Formendacil said.

Fëanor gathered the light of the Trees when it was fresh and clear, and from very close up, one would think.
Galadriel was forced to capture the light at much greater removes, from the heavens, and a very long time after the Silmaril had been set to be a star, so it doesn't seem all that odd to me that the potency of the phial would have been less. Also, great as Galadriel was, Fëanor was on an altogether different level when it came to making things like that, I would say.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The narrative in ROTK telling of Sam going inside the Mountain seems to indicate it was both Sauron and the volcano itself that caused the phial to diminish in power.

Although it's an unsolvable question, really, I'm going to be pedantic and note that that this passage still only speaks of Sauron's realm, and the forge of his might. Granted, it's a legitimate interpretation to put the source of the power in Sauron, given this context... at the same time I feel like noting that these are only references to the place... and as the thrust of my argument is that it was Orodruin, the place, that gave Sauron the power (hence, it's importance as the place of his forging). In other words, Sauron's realm is not powerful because it is his, but rather he made it his realm because of the extra power he derived from it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I feel like noting that these are only references to the place... and as the thrust of my argument is that it was Orodruin, the place, that gave Sauron the power (hence, it's importance as the place of his forging). In other words, Sauron's realm is not powerful because it is his, but rather he made it his realm because of the extra power he derived from it.

Well, why did Sauron decide upon Mordor as his 'western outpost'?

The Tale of Years says Sauron settled on Mordor in the Second Age:

c. 1000- Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenóreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.

Two entries later in the year S.A. 1200, we have Sauron going about seducing the Eldar of Eregion.

The first entry makes no mention of Mt. Doom being one of the selling points for Sauron in picking Mordor. If I had to guess, I would think he would have chosen Mordor for its proximity to realms of his enemies, and the natural defences offered by the mountain ranges surrounding it. Perhaps it was only after he conceived of his plan to trap the peoples of Middle-earth by use of the Rings of Power that he realised what an aid Mt. Doom would have been. I don't know much about metal-working, but maybe the intense heat at the Mountain somehow made it possible to make the One as potent and durable as it was. After all, there were no other volcanoes mentioned in the books that I'm aware of, and the Nine and the Seven , made in Eregion, were subject to destruction by at least dragon-fire, whereas the One couldn't apparently be harmed even by that.

Here's a question, though. If there was something about Mt. Doom that gave it some sort of special potency against the forces of 'good', why didn't Sauron, or more likely Morgoth, have made use of it sooner? The indication from the Tale of Years is that there was nothing really notable about the land of Mordor before Sauron made it his primary realm in the Second Age, aside from the volcano.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Here's a question, though. If there was something about Mt. Doom that gave it some sort of special potency against the forces of 'good', why didn't Sauron, or more likely Morgoth, have made use of it sooner? The indication from the Tale of Years is that there was nothing really notable about the land of Mordor before Sauron made it his primary realm in the Second Age, aside from the volcano.

This tangent interests me more than the first part of your post, Zil, so I'm going to selfishly pursue it alone--though you made good points there (better ones, in my opinion, in terms of counter-argument with my theory than what I already addressed in my last post... but that's just me).

Anyway, this question intrigues me because it allows for a whole lot more speculation. The fact of the matter is that we don't know a whole lot about what went on in the First Age in Eriador, Rhovannion, Harad, Rhûn--or anywhere other than Beleriand. To go back to those much-favoured essays in "Myths Transformed," the comment is made that:

Originally Posted by Essay VII

...the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-West

Later, in the same essay, Tolkien adds:

Originally Posted by Essay VII

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction.

[i]--emphasis mine

And again, shortly after,

Originally Posted by Essay VII

Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war.

(As an aside--I'm obviously a big fan of this essay)

My point in quoting here is that there is a twofold reason we do not see Morgoth or Sauron making any use of Orodruin prior to ca. 1000 S.A. Firstly, as noted, we don't see much action outside of Beleriand. Secondly, and equally importantly, Morgoth's attention was focused on Beleriand. If Orodruin had some sort of special "power"--that is to say, if there were a plan on Morgoth's part to it having a special power (rather than, say, having a vein of gold or some other especially susceptible element foaming in its lava), then this would probably date back to prehistory, of which the Silmarillion is really just a brief account, in which what Morgoth does is mediated through the Valar through the Elves.

It is quite possible, to my mind, that prior to the war between Melkor and the Valar that occurred after the Awakening and Discover of the Elves, that Orodruin was used or was being prepared for something--Melkor had sway over all Middle-earth, if he wanted--but was then left "dormant" (not in the volcanic sense but in the diabolic sense) when he was taken captive for three ages to Valinor, and then never reclaimed when he returned to Middle-earth and focused his attention on the war in Beleriand.

As for Sauron... why then did he take 1000 years to decide to move to Mordor? Well... that should be somewhat obvious from a glance at the Silmarillion: Sauron simply wasn't ready to start making himself into the next Dark Lord. He was also driven away into hiding by the defeat of Morgoth and the overthrow of Thangorodrim, and Sauron was never one to move out into the open before his plans were laid and well underway. I think it's more noteworthy that rather than being seen as 1000 year wait, it is significant that the first thing that Sauron did in the Second Age worth mentioning is his establishment of himself in Mordor.