Enchanted Stream

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Basically, what I meant was that I look for common threads in the books, and that allowing for multiple 'River-daughters', for example, when there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it, seems improper to me. Speculation is free though, and I'm not saying anyone else is bound to 'limit' their thinking (if that's the way you want to consider it) the way I do. Like I said, that's just the way my mind works; I want to make things fit in ME. Maybe they don't, as an intention of the author, but that doesn't stop me trying.

But Tolkien himself says that there were more things that he has written about! So that fits.

And for multiple River-daughters, well, I always thought about it that way that she was just one of many daughters of her own mother, and in any case, if we take her mother as a real character, as specifically said especially in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, that would imply that there is just a "race", we could say, of these river-sprites, who procreate and therefore one could assume there being more of them. Probably less than in ancient times, but still... something like Ents, for instance, or a good counterpart to the Spiders, possibly traceable to some Maia of Ulmo or something like that as their originator. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. And I don't know how about your local mythology, but at least in the fairy-tales and myths of my country some sort of sprites in woman form who live in the water is perfectly normal, so I am sort of associating Goldberry with them (she has basically the same traits) - I am assuming that some similar concept exists more widely, and therefore, Tolkien would likely use this as a basis for Goldberry's character. And such a kind of beings can easily exist throughout the Middle-Earth, not in every stream (especially if it's associated with Ulmo, the explanation is easy: Ulmo himself said that already in the First Age, his powers were withdrawing from the waters of the world), but somewhere - just like the Ents (with possibly even a bit more "isolated" social structure).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But Tolkien himself says that there were more things that he has written about! So that fits.

Yes, he did say that, but we don't know what he had in mind for those creatures that were in his head, but he didn't tell us about.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

And for multiple River-daughters, well, I always thought about it that way that she was just one of many daughters of her own mother, and in any case, if we take her mother as a real character, as specifically said especially in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil, that would imply that there is just a "race", we could say, of these river-sprites, who procreate and therefore one could assume there being more of them.

I've certainly heard of nymphs and sprites like that in other stories. My interpretion of 'River-daughter' has been that Goldberry was 'the daughter of the River', the river being the Withywindle specifically, and that she was attached to that place in Middle-earth. Tom said he 'found' her at that particular river, so it seems clear she was connected to it somehow. That could indeed fit the criteria for her being a sprite or something similar. Or maybe she was a daughter of another Maia. Yes, I know. The tendancy to go back to the Maia well for explanations can be tiring.

I've always seen Goldberry and Tom as both being unique in Middle-earth, a matched pair, and without further evidence in the books, there being a race of similar beings is difficult for me to accept. As much as we do get to hear of legends and myths held by the denizens of ME, I just have to think there would be a mention of other Golberries somewhere if they were around. I have the Adventures lying around here somewhere, but it's been missing for quite a while, and I don't remember the reference you cite.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I've always seen Goldberry and Tom as both being unique in Middle-earth, a matched pair, and without further evidence in the books, there being a race of similar beings is difficult for me to accept. As much as we do get to hear of legends and myths held by the denizens of ME, I just have to think there would be a mention of other Golberries somewhere if they were around. I have the Adventures lying around here somewhere, but it's been missing for quite a while, and I don't remember the reference you cite.

Well, let me just note that while I really dislike all the attempts to make Tom a Maia (like some disgusting David Day did), I think with Goldberry it would work to make her a Maia of Ulmo, if it came to that. There is still the possibility to have her as something else - although effectively I think it makes little difference.

Anyway, in the Adventures of TB there is an explicit mention of her mother as a different being, Goldberry is taken away from her and she weeps somewhere around there. Therefore it seems only logical to me that there will be more of them.

In any case, if Tolkien says that the world was "full of strange creatures beyond count" (and he says that in the context of mentioning that nobody knew about Hobbits until Third Age), it implies that there have been many creatures around. After all, LotR is just one random tale taking one year in a history longer than several thousand years as far as the Elven dating goes, and even further in the earlier ages. We aren't told all the legends and bedtime stories of the Rohirrim, or Gondorians, or Hobbits or Elves or whoever, not to speak of Rhun and Harad, and I am pretty sure you will find some tales of Goldberries somewhere, as well as many other tales, some based on reality, some not - or maybe all of them based on reality to a certain extent. There are many uncharted parts of Middle-Earth and places not mentioned in the books and not explored, one does not even know what all sub-species of Trolls there were, and yet you'd dare to assume that our knowledge ends with Tom and Goldberry - if there is such a pair living in the Old Forest, why couldn't, of all places, something similar live in Mirkwood, or far in Rhun? I am not speaking about Tom, who seems to be really unique, but Goldberry or something similar... why not?