Cirdan's appearance

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

... like Celeborn was old and had silver hair

But Galadriel didn't have grey hair, nor did she appear old in the least. And Celeborn's hair colour appears to be part of the basis for his name, 'silver-tall'. If that was the case, his silver hair wouldn't look to be related to his age, at least not as an expression of his time in Middle-earth.
I wonder if it is indeed not notable that the two grey-haired Elves we see (aside from Gwindor, whose physical appearance was caused by torment and labour under Morgoth) were both of the Teleri. They would certainly have seen more than their share of grief and general stress, much of it due to the Noldor.

[Galin]

Yes, my point was... sorry I deleted the post before anyone responded, but you must have been 'responding' Inziladun...

... that Silver hair need not be because of great age. That is, Celeborn didn't look old (but was old) and had silver hair.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Galin

... that Silver hair need not be because of great age. That is, Celeborn didn't look old (but was old) and had silver hair.

Yep, silver or white as a natural hair colour seems to have been quite common among the Teleri, especially the close kin of Elwe. Still, it's quite possible that they 'greyed' more easily than Elves of the other kindreds for that very reason. The whole matter has been discussed at some length in another thread, and I especially like the point Roa made in this post:

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

It seems clear that originally Cirdan's hair was silver. Perhaps the description of his hair being grey was not so much the loss of color (as the greying that our hair goes through in old age) but the loss of the sheen that made it look silver. The soul of an Elf is a bright burning flame. It stands to reason that as an Elf reaches the third stage of life, that flame dims a little, causes them to lose a little of the shine that follows their description in almost every instance. So Cirdan's hair may have been the same color, but dimmed somehow. Does that make sense?

It does to me - Cirdan's grey hair would be his natural Teler silver dulled, rather than depigmented, by age.

[Galin]

Was silver hair common among the Teleri? at least it is noted as seemingly not common among the Sindar, though found among them occasionally: '... especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwe (as in the case of Cirdan)'. (JRRT, Quendi And Eldar). The line in The Lord of the Rings reads...

'... and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars...'

My original (now deleted) post raised the 'technicality' that the line doesn't actually state that Cirdan looked old, but that he was old and grey... but yes I know how weak this is, and agree the implication of the whole sentence is that he looked old.

Reconsidering this, I deleted a post that basically said little or nothing, like this one

[Pitchwife]

Well, maybe not 'common' in the sense that every other Elf would have it, but as in 'not uncommon, not exceptionally rare', which amounts to about the same thing as your 'found among them occasionally'. But who knows - perhaps even the dark-haired among the Teleri had a sort of silver-metallic lustre in their hair, counterpart to the dark copper-red found among the sons of Fëanor?
Which raises the question: Could it be that the name Sindar referred in part at least to the (cum grano salis) 'commonness' of that hair colour among them, especially in the royal family (beside the obvious sense that they were Elves of the Twilight in contrast to both Calaquendi and Moriquendi)? After all, the Vanyar were also named thus for their hair colour, weren't they? All speculation, I know...

[obloquy]

In addition to being Firstborn, Cirdan never went to Valinor. He was one of the very oldest beings in Middle-earth, and had never experienced the regenerative, sustaining power of Aman.

[elbenprincess]

Oh thanks for the many responses And @Pitchwife: Yes Im german and I forgot that in english its elven and not elben But I like elben more ;- )

Very interesting your points, and I think it really makes sence that the fading of the remaining elves in ME starts earlyer than in Aman but even in Aman they begin to fade "eventually" but I think only after a long long time, more than 20000 or 30000 Years and maybe its even individual. The more an elf is been through the faster is the process.

But we still don´t know if elves before they reach the fourth circle generelly will look old, cause cirdan can´t be take as example, cause he never saw aman and under stress they can age faster too (I read somewhere) And I think he had stess

But it must be terrible for an elf suddenly looking like after all this years of beauty.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(...) Which raises the question: Could it be that the name Sindar referred in part at least to the (...) 'commonness' of that hair colour among them, especially in the royal family (beside the obvious sense that they were Elves of the Twilight in contrast to both Calaquendi and Moriquendi)? After all, the Vanyar were also named thus for their hair colour, weren't they? All speculation, I know...

Tolkien actually raises this as a supposition of the loremasters, but that's when 'the author' follows with: 'Elwe himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar...'

On the origin of Sindar, the reader is referred to note 11 (Quendi And Eldar), which explains that Mithrim was a name given to northern Elves by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North, and that it was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.

It's added that Sindar was also later held to refer to Elwe's name 'Grey-cloak,' and it was said further that the folk of the North were clad much in grey for secrecy, especially after the return of Morgoth.


I take this to mean: here is the origin of the name Sindar (note 11)... and some loremasters also thought it might refer to hair, and Elwe himseld did have Silvery hair, but (and so on), adding that the Sindar generally resembled the Noldor, being tall, lithe and dark-haired (and then the eyes of the Noldor are noted).


This gave me the general impression that there doesn't seem to be any great reason for this added supposition -- Sindar including a reference to hair -- despite it coming from certain loremasters.

That's how I read it anyway

[Galin]

Back to the subject at hand... we don't know that there is anything called a 'fourth cycle' for Elves, and for myself, the reader's explanations: that Círdan was really old, or was under stress, and never went to Aman, do not well enough explain why he appears to look aged.

Text on fading refers to Elven spirits consuming their bodies so that they become invisible to men's minds, though they '... may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty.' In note 7 to the commentary on the Athrabeth, it is noted that the Elves: '... eventually became housed, if it can be called that, not in actual visible and tangible hroar, but only in the memory of the fea of its bodily form, and its desire for it,...'

In Laws And Customs Tolkien talks about Elven ageing beyond what might be observed, as the text notes that Men deem that the Elves do not grow old in body-- and thus it might be thought that they can have children at any time in the ages of their lives. And what Men deem is not corrected as I read it, rather it is explained that the Elves do age, but in inner ways: '... the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes...'

In short they do age, as in: they fade.

In the text Aman once again 'fading' is raised: '... after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly. For a while it would be fortified and maintained by its indwelling fea, and then its vitality would begin to ebb, and its desire for physical life and joy in it would pass ever more swiftly away. Then an Elf would begin (as they say now, for these things did not full appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade', until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit that had inhabited it.'


To my mind it seems that Tolkien writes about, or refers to, fading enough times. Morgoth's Ring references include (not necessarily exhaustive)...

Page
210 'and the fire of their spirit had not consumed them'
212 'spirits invisible to mortal eyes'
219 '... the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the fea.'
224 'Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully.'
225 'Then they may reveal to him their forms...'
342 'They eventually became housed (...) not in actual visible and tangible hroar, but only in the memory of its bodily form, and its desire for it.'
427 'thus an Elf would begin to fade (...), until the fea as it were consumed the hroa until it remained only in the love and memory of the spirit...'


It would seem to me fairly notable if Elves who remained young looking for thousands of years in Middle-earth also had a phase of looking aged. And here we have opportunities to describe, or even briefly mention (to make clear, if so), some phase before fading, or describe that fading includes the bodily ageing of Elves.


For myself, I don't think any such phase really existed, with respect to the later legendarium anyway. It doesn't seem to me that the Elvish experience in Middle-earth normally included aged looking Lingerers. But yet Círdan is presented as looking aged, in description published by Tolkien himself, and never revised. So yes, good question!


If Círdan is to be characterized as an exception, I don't see how really old should matter here: if one lives ten thousand years, or twenty, or more, why should it matter if the way an Elf ages means that he or she begins to fade in the body (become invisible to Men, be held in memory), and become a Lingerer.

Stress? Well maybe Tolkien could focus on that somehow, but in my opinion this opens up a somewhat ambiguous door as to 'how much' is enough. Going by the description we have to date, I don't recall that Círdan was ever taken by the Enemy and tortured for years, for example.