Cirdan's appearance - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gwathagor · 05-11-2010, 12:58 PM

On elves with beards - in Tolkien's "Beleg Finds Gwindor in Taur-nu-Fuin," Beleg appears to be sporting a goatee. Not sure what to make of it, but there it is.

Galin · 05-11-2010, 01:23 PM

True but that picture is dated quite early (and much later used for a cover illustration to the Two Towers).

I'm not sure JRRT later imagined Beleg to be in his third cycle of life in the First Age, despite that no numbers (yet) are known with respect to a cycle.

elbenprincess · 06-18-2010, 01:45 PM

If cirdan is 11.000 years old and appears grey and old, are the elves of the same age in valinor old looking too? I mean Olwe and Ingwe and probably finarfin are in the same age or does the blessed realm prevent them from aging?

I still have no answer for the aging problem, once tolkien said that the elves become full grown with 50 -3000 years and from this point endure in their body form and then he said that they indeed grow older together with arda and that they are not immortal ´, they just have out of the ordinary long lifespans...
Does he mean physical changes, getting grey hair and wrinkels or does he mean the change of their body mood and impulses; the fading. And Tolkien said that the fea controlls the hroa, would that mean that if an elf wants looking old, the fea has a control in that, maybe that is the case for cirdan, I read somewhre that "he apperas to age himself"
And I read that at the point of dagor dagorath ALL the elves of the earth will be invisible not just the elves in ME, so it is clear that the elves in aman are fading too.
That all is really confusing, I just would like to know if the fading includes outwardly changes and how long it takes for an elf to fade in aman, if the elf is happy (no grief and all that)

For the circles, the first and second circle is very clear, childhood and early adulthood but what about the third circle, we know elfes grew a beard but is that in accord to usual signs of age (like cirdan) or get they just a beard? And what about the women I think we can assume that they don´t grew a beard.
I believe elfes are very vain, aren´t they? I think they wouldn´t be too amazed, at least many of them. And then to live 50000 jahre in the body of a eighty years old? I don´t think that would be fun, and therfore the elves would no longer be a fair folk.

Galin · 06-18-2010, 02:30 PM

Hmm, still, we read in Morgoth's Ring...

Quote:

'But in Aman, since its blessing descended upon the hroar of the Eldar, as upon all other bodies, the hroar aged only apace with the fear, and the Eldar that remained in the Blessed Realm endured in full maturity and in undimmed power of body and spirit conjoined for ages beyound our mortal comprehension.'

This description is in contrast (note how it begins 'But in Aman...') to what came immediately before it in the essay titled Aman (see Myths Transformed text XI) -- and what came before it is a description of the slow fading of the Elves in Middle-earth.

Findegil · 06-21-2010, 04:34 AM

In my point of view Aman has already faded completly with all its inhabitants.

Mortals neither can reach it nor see it. It is removed to the same level of existence to which the elves of Middle-Earth are doomed in the longrun of there lifes. To go to the west is not to escape from fading, but to accept it!
In Aman an elf might be less unhappy because he does not be reminded all the time about what he has lost, but he still HAS lost all intercourse with the physical world of Middle-Earth.

Respectfuly
Findegil

Galin · 06-21-2010, 07:13 AM

I cannot agree Findegil. In Reincarnation of Elves Tolkien jotted an aside...

Quote:

'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all.'

I think this is good 'advice' for readers as well, and in my opinion your post seems an attempt to explain (in measure) this very thing, in part merging a concept Tolkien kept distinct to my mind.

Despite 'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World' the author still notes 'and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy' (which begins the section Aman and Mortal Men immediately after the citation I posted above), why should the author even attempt such a distinction if it is to be tossed aside with respect to after the Change of the World.

I think JRR Tolkien is shining through here: he cannot lay out the ideas in certain terms, for Men do not go to Aman, nor is the existence of such a place easy to explain in any event... but still the idea put forward is that in Aman there is no fading of the bodies of the Elves 'for ages beyond our mortal comprehension'.

And this fading is the 'waning of the Elvish Hroar' (note 7, Commentary to the Athrabeth), or the spirits of the Elves consuming them (Laws And Customs). I think if Elfwine were to have sojourned to Aman he would see the Elves with actual physical bodies and the world about him would be physical... and the question of the nature of the very existence of Aman -- with respect to its relation to Middle-earth or 'the World' itself -- is another matter.

Regarding the Dagor Dagorath: in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien noted that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world, and that the myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin (excised for the 1977 Silmarillion in any case).

But besides taking Dagor Dagorath out of the mouth of Mandos, I think such a concept can fall 'outside the rules' in any event; or perhaps, we need not press the myth too hard concerning how these events will occur. If there is to be such a battle in the future, why can't even Elves who happen to be without bodies be given bodies? If Turin is to be involved for example (as he was at least for a number of phases of this concept), do we need to wonder how he can fight, having already died on earth as a mortal?

For myself I see no real gain by pressing the Mannish myth in this way. I tend to think: whatever will happen at the Great End, if there is a 'Battle of Battles' that needs to be physical as we understand the nature of our present existence...

... then physical enough it will be

elbenprincess · 06-25-2010, 03:00 PM

a question about cirdan, was he an elf who awoke at cuivienen? If not, what became of the 144 elfes who awoke at first? Why is not some elf of the first generation the king of the differnet groups, but Finwe (at that time), Olwe and Ingwe, I guess the second generation? I guess all three had had parents?
Where did they go?

05-11-2010, 12:58 PM	#1
Gwathagor Shade with a Blade Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: A Rainy Night In Soho Posts: 2,512	On elves with beards - in Tolkien's "Beleg Finds Gwindor in Taur-nu-Fuin," Beleg appears to be sporting a goatee. Not sure what to make of it, but there it is. __________________ Stories and songs.

06-18-2010, 01:45 PM	#3
elbenprincess Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 69	If cirdan is 11.000 years old and appears grey and old, are the elves of the same age in valinor old looking too? I mean Olwe and Ingwe and probably finarfin are in the same age or does the blessed realm prevent them from aging? I still have no answer for the aging problem, once tolkien said that the elves become full grown with 50 -3000 years and from this point endure in their body form and then he said that they indeed grow older together with arda and that they are not immortal ´, they just have out of the ordinary long lifespans... Does he mean physical changes, getting grey hair and wrinkels or does he mean the change of their body mood and impulses; the fading. And Tolkien said that the fea controlls the hroa, would that mean that if an elf wants looking old, the fea has a control in that, maybe that is the case for cirdan, I read somewhre that "he apperas to age himself" And I read that at the point of dagor dagorath ALL the elves of the earth will be invisible not just the elves in ME, so it is clear that the elves in aman are fading too. That all is really confusing, I just would like to know if the fading includes outwardly changes and how long it takes for an elf to fade in aman, if the elf is happy (no grief and all that) For the circles, the first and second circle is very clear, childhood and early adulthood but what about the third circle, we know elfes grew a beard but is that in accord to usual signs of age (like cirdan) or get they just a beard? And what about the women I think we can assume that they don´t grew a beard. I believe elfes are very vain, aren´t they? I think they wouldn´t be too amazed, at least many of them. And then to live 50000 jahre in the body of a eighty years old? I don´t think that would be fun, and therfore the elves would no longer be a fair folk. Last edited by elbenprincess; 06-18-2010 at 02:01 PM.

05-11-2010, 01:23 PM	#2
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	True but that picture is dated quite early (and much later used for a cover illustration to the Two Towers). I'm not sure JRRT later imagined Beleg to be in his third cycle of life in the First Age, despite that no numbers (yet) are known with respect to a cycle.

06-21-2010, 04:34 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	In my point of view Aman has already faded completly with all its inhabitants. Mortals neither can reach it nor see it. It is removed to the same level of existence to which the elves of Middle-Earth are doomed in the longrun of there lifes. To go to the west is not to escape from fading, but to accept it! In Aman an elf might be less unhappy because he does not be reminded all the time about what he has lost, but he still HAS lost all intercourse with the physical world of Middle-Earth. Respectfuly Findegil

06-25-2010, 03:00 PM	#7
elbenprincess Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 69	a question about cirdan, was he an elf who awoke at cuivienen? If not, what became of the 144 elfes who awoke at first? Why is not some elf of the first generation the king of the differnet groups, but Finwe (at that time), Olwe and Ingwe, I guess the second generation? I guess all three had had parents? Where did they go?