Cirdan's appearance

[Galin]

I cannot agree Findegil. In Reincarnation of Elves Tolkien jotted an aside...

'the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after their "removal" must be dubious and unexplained', as must the question of 'how "mortals" could go there at all.'

I think this is good 'advice' for readers as well, and in my opinion your post seems an attempt to explain (in measure) this very thing, in part merging a concept Tolkien kept distinct to my mind.

Despite 'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World' the author still notes 'and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy' (which begins the section Aman and Mortal Men immediately after the citation I posted above), why should the author even attempt such a distinction if it is to be tossed aside with respect to after the Change of the World.

I think JRR Tolkien is shining through here: he cannot lay out the ideas in certain terms, for Men do not go to Aman, nor is the existence of such a place easy to explain in any event... but still the idea put forward is that in Aman there is no fading of the bodies of the Elves 'for ages beyond our mortal comprehension'.

And this fading is the 'waning of the Elvish Hroar' (note 7, Commentary to the Athrabeth), or the spirits of the Elves consuming them (Laws And Customs). I think if Elfwine were to have sojourned to Aman he would see the Elves with actual physical bodies and the world about him would be physical... and the question of the nature of the very existence of Aman -- with respect to its relation to Middle-earth or 'the World' itself -- is another matter.


Regarding the Dagor Dagorath: in Morgoth's Ring Tolkien noted that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world, and that the myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Numenorean origin (excised for the 1977 Silmarillion in any case).

But besides taking Dagor Dagorath out of the mouth of Mandos, I think such a concept can fall 'outside the rules' in any event; or perhaps, we need not press the myth too hard concerning how these events will occur. If there is to be such a battle in the future, why can't even Elves who happen to be without bodies be given bodies? If Turin is to be involved for example (as he was at least for a number of phases of this concept), do we need to wonder how he can fight, having already died on earth as a mortal?

For myself I see no real gain by pressing the Mannish myth in this way. I tend to think: whatever will happen at the Great End, if there is a 'Battle of Battles' that needs to be physical as we understand the nature of our present existence...

... then physical enough it will be

[elbenprincess]

a question about cirdan, was he an elf who awoke at cuivienen? If not, what became of the 144 elfes who awoke at first? Why is not some elf of the first generation the king of the differnet groups, but Finwe (at that time), Olwe and Ingwe, I guess the second generation? I guess all three had had parents?
Where did they go?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

a question about cirdan, was he an elf who awoke at cuivienen?

It is not said that he awoke, specifically.

If not, what became of the 144 elfes who awoke at first? Why is not some elf of the first generation the king of the differnet groups, but Finwe (at that time), Olwe and Ingwe, I guess the second generation?

It's interesting that JRRT appears to have considered Ingwe one of the Unbegotten in The Lhammas (see The Lost Road, here from CJRT's commentary): 'It is now told that Ingwe was not only the high-king of the Eldalie, but was 'the oldest of all Elves, for he first awoke.').


But I would say Tolkien abandoned this. I think JRRT later came to believe that a fairy tale treatment of such an ancient matter worked well, and it might serve to improve the mystery of the ambassadors too. Keep in mind the nature of the sources for the legend of the awakening: an Elvish fairytale '... preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar' Is such a text meant to contains truths about the Unbegotten? Hmm.

Perhaps Ingwe will not certainly be noted as one of the Unbegotten, and even he will have a relationship (in The Shibboleth of Feanor for instance, Ingwe is said to have a sister) which -- when compared to the legend of the Unbegotten at least -- might raise questions concerning whether or not he awoke (I don't imagine that Tolkien thought of the earlier texts specifically, as there is quite a gap of years between them in any event, but I do think that when he decided to deal with the Unbegotten in Cuivienyarna the ambassadors might generally have come to mind).

In a sense we have Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe from history (albeit very deep legendary history), with no reference stating that they awoke (as formerly for Ingwe), and from an arguably 'less scholarly' side of preserved lore (but still not to be ignored): Imin 'One', Tata 'Two', Enel 'Three', from fairy tale.

I think the new idea was that even the Elves -- who might preserve history and tales from very distant times (especially from a mannish perspective) -- even they retained their own origin in an Elvish fairy tale, as here I guess that there was to be no competing account from a loremaster of Eressea. The author of Quendi And Eldar mentions the legend, but still that's different from a full acount that is not: 'Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish 'fairytale' or child's tale, mingled with counting lore.' (JRRT wrote this on a copy of Cuivienyarna).

To my mind it's another brilliant decision to present the matter of the Unbegotten Elves from a source readers might tend to question -- in some measure anyway -- while at the same time still wonder what truths might have shaped it.


And here is another example where I think Tolkien desires certain areas of the deep past to remain a mystery. The very first Elves from the legend are not identified with any Elves from Quenta Silmarillion, nor is it explained what happened to 'Imin' for instance.


In Middle-earth there is lost history or lore, just as in the Primary World, and even the Elves only preserved so much.

[Findegil]

As to the question why Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe / Olwe became kings and not the three unbegotten leaders Imin, Tata and Enel:
Consider the situation: You are a leader of a folk that has recently suffered some causality from a dreaded hunter. Now a hunter appears, it seems that he is different from the one that is feared but some in your folk mistrust him. He makes in invitation for one of your folk to follow him as an ambassador to be shown the paradisiacal country he promises to lead all your folk to.

As a good leader you would never go yourself!
If the mistrust is right you would be dead and your folk leader less. The risk of that is too high even if the chance for it might be very small.

So who do you send? You must trust him and you must know him very well, considering that he might come back being brainwashed and leading you to wrong conclusions if you do not detect the change in him. He must be known and well respected by your people as well, since your decision to follow the not fully trusted hunter will be based on his report.
That means you send a trusted member of your council, probably some one near akin.

It seems that all three leaders Imin, Tata and Enel followed that course.

Now the ambassadors come back. They seem unchanged and promote the idea to settle in that paradise. But the discussion opens up a rift through the middle of you folk between the party how wants to go and the one who wants to stay. You as the leader are unable to close that rift. It is clear in the end that the folk will be split. So one party at least will choose a new leader.

An honest leader will consider stepping back in that situation. He might be counted then still as a leader of the complete folk, even so he goes naturally with one of the parties. The party following the hunter will chose the ambassador as a leader, since he is most convincingly discussing that they do the right thing.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galin]

(...) So who do you send? You must trust him and you must know him very well, considering that he might come back being brainwashed and leading you to wrong conclusions if you do not detect the change in him. He must be known and well respected by your people as well, since your decision to follow the not fully trusted hunter will be based on his report. That means you send a trusted member of your council, probably some one near akin.

It seems that all three leaders Imin, Tata and Enel followed that course.

Hmm, but according to both the Annals of Aman (AAm) and Quenta Silmarillion (QS), it was Orome who chose three ambassadors -- and according to the former (AAm): 'And three only of the chieftains of the Quendi were willing to adventure the journey: Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, who afterwards were kings.'


Generally speaking, variant sources might differ in detail as well: I consider the cuivienyarna, or fairy tale concerning the awakening of the Elves, a more Elvish source -- and for instance, in it the Elves awoke after the Sun existed (they first awoke in Spring).