Boromir's search for Imladris - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Erendis · 06-23-2010, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The only ones there who could reasonably have known the way were the Dúnedain themselves, if one happened to be in Bree at that moment.

Why necessarily meeting them in Bree?

Supposing he continued by following Mitheitheil's stream to the Last Bridge,that brings him rather close to Weathertop.Since it was a Ranger's point of frequent visit
and after the encounter with the Nazgul and news of the flashes coming out from its top,they must have been at least curious about the area.So,it seems quite possible there were some around when Boromir showed up.

Inziladun · 06-23-2010, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erendis

Supposing he continued by following Mitheitheil's stream to the Last Bridge,that brings him rather close to Weathertop.

But what would have induced him to go west to Weathertop?

I'm going on the assumption that Boromir at least knew the general area in which Imladris was located; in a valley near the Ford of Bruinen, close to the Mountains. If that was the case, his traveling to Weathertop, which would have been at least an extra day or two's journey out of his way west, would have been unlikely.

Erendis · 06-23-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But what would have induced him to go west to Weathertop?
.

Nothing.It is a total waste of time.

I mean he might have been spotted by some Rangers being around the area.

The Mouth of Sauron · 07-09-2010, 04:54 AM

Another reason I still find it hard to believe that people in Gondor didn't know where Imladris was is this : People in Minas Tirith must have known of the existence of the Beornings, the Woodland Realm, Esgaroth and Dale - and they certainly knew where Rivendell was. Surely Denethor could have sent scouts into northern Wilderland to "ask around" ?

Mithalwen · 07-09-2010, 10:35 AM

We know that Boromir was a man of action rather than a scholar unlike his father and brothers and also that there was a relatively short time between the eve of the assault on Osgiliath on 20th of June when Faramir first had the "seek for the sword that was broken" dream and Boromir leaving on the 4th July and from what we know of the family dynamic it is a fair bet that the dream was only taken seriously once Boromir had had it. There was possibly not the time to seach the archives even if the knowledge existed there such things area often learnt by experience. From Elfhelm's words at the edge of the Grey Woods it seems that not that many of the Rohirrim knew the way unguided even to Minas Tirith, chief city of their closest allies ... true Gondorians were more likely to study maps and the like but knowing something exists is very different to knowing where it is... I know I own various pairs of scissors but can I find them when I need them?

I doubt that the location of Rivendell was exactly known other than to the elves and we know that the men of Gondor (and Rohan) had no dealings with them at that time. Did people in Dale know of Rivendell? The dwarves would certainly but a rather circuitous route.

Look at what Boromir says"the way was full of doubt and danger..long I have wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard but few knew where it lay"

In the "Journeys of Frodo" the admirably thorough Barbar Strachey, says that it isn't clear what route he took though he claims 1200 miles. She says it is possible he took the road the whole way but I think it unlikely he went to Bree for reasons stated.

Outside Moria he says "Let us journey south to the Gap of Rohan...taking the road that I followed on my way hither" . But it is ambiguous whether by that he means the road he took to or from the Gap.

While Elrond says he arrives in the "grey morning", Hammond and Scull point out that the tale of years has him arrive the night before - which might allow him to be connected to Elladan and Elrohir arriving out of the wilds unexpectedly. Maybe they were the ones who "brought him in".

Tuor in Gondolin · 07-09-2010, 12:50 PM

I agree with Boromir probably going up the Mitheithel, once he lost
his horse. Surely tales of Earnur's victory at Fornost (even though
a thousand years ago) was known and was an epic tale sung during
festive occasions in Gondor, and as an exciting battle, enjoyed especially
by Boromir. And in that battle the important role of both Cirdan and
Elrond, and the general direction from which their forces came, would
be known, at least in so far as it was east of the Weather Hills and
near the Misty Mountains, and so a natural aiming point for him would
be the area of the intersection of the East Road and the Metheithel.
Once on foot journeying by the riverside would be shorter and quicker
then going up to Bree and then east (although with less chance of
aid from travelers or others).

Mithalwen · 07-12-2010, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

a natural aiming point for him would
be the area of the intersection of the East Road and the Metheithel.
Once on foot journeying by the riverside would be shorter and quicker
then going up to Bree and then east (although with less chance of
aid from travelers or others).

Good point - and there may have been awareness that the remnants of the Dunedain of the North were based in that area (the Angle) - even though they were " a ragged house, long bereft of Lordshiop and dignity", it might have been hoped in Gondor that their Northern kin would have this knowledge and so if Boromir found the Rangers he would be headed in the right direction.

I meant to say that geography can cheat the eye.. I took my Australian cousin to the beach a couple of weeks ago and we went to where my aunt has a beach hut a couple of miles along the coast from the beach nearest to my house, which my cousin had visited last time she was down and from which the Isle of Wight is clearly visible as an island. When we got to the hut she asked "where is the Isle of Wight?" And I said well it is over there trying not ot make it seem like she was being stupid, but the fact is that the change of angle and a shingle spit make the solent look just like a bay from that point. Things can be just under your nose and if you don't know the area well, perfectly hidden.

Boromir88 · 07-12-2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Another reason I still find it hard to believe that people in Gondor didn't know where Imladris was is this : People in Minas Tirith must have known of the existence of the Beornings, the Woodland Realm, Esgaroth and Dale - and they certainly knew where Rivendell was. Surely Denethor could have sent scouts into northern Wilderland to "ask around" ?

What I don't get is why you keep insisting the exact location of a hidden refuge (where even Aragorn has some difficulty finding) has to be common knowledge to every bloat in the story?

The Mouth of Sauron · 07-12-2010, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What I don't get is why you keep insisting the exact location of a hidden refuge (where even Aragorn has some difficulty finding) has to be common knowledge to every bloat in the story?

I didn't realise I was "insisting" about anything.

Aragorn had difficulty finding Rivendell ?!? I don't think so.

And the main point I was trying to make was that the location of Rivendell WAS known by certain people in the wider world - and in the unlikely event that Gondor had forgotten its location, Denethor surely had options when it came to eliciting that information rather than sending Boromir on an uncertain journey.

07-09-2010, 10:35 AM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	We know that Boromir was a man of action rather than a scholar unlike his father and brothers and also that there was a relatively short time between the eve of the assault on Osgiliath on 20th of June when Faramir first had the "seek for the sword that was broken" dream and Boromir leaving on the 4th July and from what we know of the family dynamic it is a fair bet that the dream was only taken seriously once Boromir had had it. There was possibly not the time to seach the archives even if the knowledge existed there such things area often learnt by experience. From Elfhelm's words at the edge of the Grey Woods it seems that not that many of the Rohirrim knew the way unguided even to Minas Tirith, chief city of their closest allies ... true Gondorians were more likely to study maps and the like but knowing something exists is very different to knowing where it is... I know I own various pairs of scissors but can I find them when I need them? I doubt that the location of Rivendell was exactly known other than to the elves and we know that the men of Gondor (and Rohan) had no dealings with them at that time. Did people in Dale know of Rivendell? The dwarves would certainly but a rather circuitous route. Look at what Boromir says"the way was full of doubt and danger..long I have wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard but few knew where it lay" In the "Journeys of Frodo" the admirably thorough Barbar Strachey, says that it isn't clear what route he took though he claims 1200 miles. She says it is possible he took the road the whole way but I think it unlikely he went to Bree for reasons stated. Outside Moria he says "Let us journey south to the Gap of Rohan...taking the road that I followed on my way hither" . But it is ambiguous whether by that he means the road he took to or from the Gap. While Elrond says he arrives in the "grey morning", Hammond and Scull point out that the tale of years has him arrive the night before - which might allow him to be connected to Elladan and Elrohir arriving out of the wilds unexpectedly. Maybe they were the ones who "brought him in". __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 07-12-2010 at 04:44 AM. Reason: various minor typos

07-09-2010, 12:50 PM	#6
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	I agree with Boromir probably going up the Mitheithel, once he lost his horse. Surely tales of Earnur's victory at Fornost (even though a thousand years ago) was known and was an epic tale sung during festive occasions in Gondor, and as an exciting battle, enjoyed especially by Boromir. And in that battle the important role of both Cirdan and Elrond, and the general direction from which their forces came, would be known, at least in so far as it was east of the Weather Hills and near the Misty Mountains, and so a natural aiming point for him would be the area of the intersection of the East Road and the Metheithel. Once on foot journeying by the riverside would be shorter and quicker then going up to Bree and then east (although with less chance of aid from travelers or others). __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

07-09-2010, 04:54 AM	#4
The Mouth of Sauron Wight Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Barad-Dur Posts: 196	Another reason I still find it hard to believe that people in Gondor didn't know where Imladris was is this : People in Minas Tirith must have known of the existence of the Beornings, the Woodland Realm, Esgaroth and Dale - and they certainly knew where Rivendell was. Surely Denethor could have sent scouts into northern Wilderland to "ask around" ?