WW General rules discussion

[Eönwë]

1. I think it might be easier if when a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it, which might make organising the list easier.
   
   

2. Originally Posted by wilwarin538

   But I think strongly encouraging Tolkien games would be a good idea, and maybe anyone who is starting their plans can aim for a Tolkien theme for the future.

   It might be interesting if the Tolkien theme will be more encouraged in experimental games, with it being more lenient on traditional games, as they already have werewolves and rangers and such which are already Tolkien-related (and so can have a bit more lenience with theme), while more more experimental games are often so different anyway, giving them a Tolkien theme might be a good idea.
   Also, on this note, I think that because this is a Tolkien forum, it might be a good idea that any new role should be introduced in a Tolkien setting/theme before being allowed to be used in a less Tolkien-themed game, just so it has a some sort of Tolkien connection.
   
   
3. It might be useful to have an ongoing thread where any new role invented can be added and explained by the mod whenever a game is completed, which will make it easier for people who haven't played with such a role before if it is used again by another mod. Of course the mod should always specify if there will be any changes made to any of the roles in their game.

[mormegil]

Would somebody be so kind as to compile all the suggestions to this point in a nice list so we can better see them and possibly condense them? I'm in an online class so I'm not really available.

[Isabellkya]

How about a clarification on meta?
Are we talking similar to the example, missed kill and x player was not around.

Or meta in terms of 'this person is usually like this when innocent and like such when evil.'

[Brinniel]

When I mentioned meta-reasoning, I was thinking along the lines of a player suspecting another player because he/she believes the mod would've chosen that player to be a wolf. It's happened before...and it irritated a lot of people too.

[Rikae]

Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I'm noticing some fairly specific guidelines or rules being mentioned for specific roles. I would advise against this. The reason is each moderator has the liberty to define the roles as she/he sees fit. I think a rule such as:

Moderators must clearly define role, unless that is part of the game, in the admin thread and those roles will be followed. Specificity is a good thing here.

My understanding of the purpose of this thread is that the role descriptions we give here don't have to be followed– rather, we're attempting to define the standard roles, mainly for the benefit of newcomers. I think that will need to be emphasised in the final version.

Originally Posted by Rikae

4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.

Either way, I'd prefer to see this as a recommendation only, rather than a "hard" rule, or else make a token connection acceptable. *cough* Starship Lothlorien *cough*

Originally Posted by Rikae

Default Role Descriptions (?):
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer (does? does not?) get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

Agreed on 1.) and 2.) As for 4.), it's normal for the Seer to get a Night 1 dream.

The Hunter's role is a bit more problematic, as it never really has been standardised. Perhaps we should define Logical and non-Logical Hunters and leave it at that? I recall being quite confused on that issue as a n00b.

Shouldn't we also mention Cursed and Werebear? They're non-standard, true, but newbies often don't know what they are at all.

Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Rikae

4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.

Why don't we handle the Tolkien-relation like we're going to handle the experimentalism? Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Finally, it might be an idea to have a Barrowdowns WW Glossary.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure how it would fit in with the idea behind the sticky. Then again, I don't see any other feasible way to do it either. Maybe a third post on the thread could contain it?

[Nerwen]

Oh, here's a thing I didn't notice before:

Originally Posted by Rikae

Unless otherwise noted by the mod, players cannot change sides and should play for the side assigned to them throughout the game.

I've seen suggestions that werebears who could no longer win alone "join" the village, and cursed villagers play cobbler from the start; if ordos are not allowed to dub themselves cobblers or form impromptu wolf packs, this sort of thing should be out, too (unless the mod explicitly allows a role to choose sides). You can't police motivations, but at least you won't have players announcing "I decided to change sides!"

No, I don't think we need a rule about how people should play. That's up to them, isn't it?

Werebears, for instance, can help either side, or neither, as they please, and I think we should leave it at that. They can't, however, actually join the village, or the pack– that is, win when they win.

As for the rare cases where a player is aware of being the Cursed from the start, I again think it's much better to leave it up to him or her how to act– in fact, that's the only reason for having such a role. (It's an interesting dilemma: whether to play one's current alignment, or bet on the chance of becoming a wolf eventually.)

With all that, it's still true that players can't change sides, in the sense that they cannot choose their own conditions for victory. If you're a bear, you can only win as a bear, not as a villager. That's what needs to be made clear.

EDIT:X'd with Mith.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ok, here's my preliminary attempt at putting everything together. I've divided it into sections for clarity, and if there's something anyone wants corrected, just let me know.

General Rules:

1. Turn your status on invisible so that people do not know when you are online when playing WW.
2. No PMing or other outside communication about an ongoing game unless your role specifically allows it (both living and dead players).
3. PMs should not be quoted during the game.
4. Name-calling, swearing, and abbreviated/implied swearing are not allowed
5. Discussion of "meta" topics such as RL reasons for absences should be kept to the admin thread.
6. Post-game discussion including the dead should not begin until after the final narration or until the mod officially allows it.
7. After signing up for a game, the player is expected to participate (vote and post) throughout the entire game or until death. If a player cannot participate for a Day, it should be stated and explained on the Admin thread. Modfire rules are up to the mod and the mod should specify these rules.
8. Editing a post for reasons other than grammar or x-posting is strictly prohibited. Once a post is submitted, the content within it cannot be changed.
9. Dead players should not be permitted to post on the admin thread or the game thread until the game is over.
10. Keep meta reasoning to the absolute minimum. (Need a definition of "meta")
11. Can we introduce an automatic modfire rule for (repeated) inappropriate conduct (language, insulting etc.)?
12. Players that fail to show up for two games they've signed up for should be barred from playing for six months.
13. Players cannot choose their own conditions for victory; these remain as the mod defines them for the given role.

Votes and Deadlines:

1. Unless otherwise specified by the mod, votes should be on a separate line, bolded or they don't count.
2. Votes are counted up to DL 'downs time. Votes posted after this time do not count.
3. Posting in game threads should stop at DL.
4. The wolf team should submit their chosen kill by one hour before deadline or there will be a no-kill. (?)
5. votes should be regarded as non-retractable unless otherwise specified.


Guidelines for Mods:

1. Would-be mods must have participated in at least 5 games of Barrowdowns werewolf before modding.
2. Mods who miss their turn twice or miss a reserved month once are removed from the list.
3. Members who have already moderated a game cannot mod again until at least 6 months after their last game.
4. Beginning when the currently planned games are done, games should be in some way Tolkien-related - or alternatively -
4. Experimental games should be Tolkien-related, traditional games don't have to.
-or-
4. Every mod has to let people know what type of game s/he plans (Tolkien-related or not / experimantal or not) and at least half of the scheduled games have to be non-experimental and half Tolkien-related.
5. When a someone signs up to mod they should also say when they are (or more importantly, aren't) able to do it.

6. Among the first posts in the admin thread one post should contain all of the following (if a mod wishes to discuss some rules/roles before starting, the post should be edited according. Rule changes should not only be mentioned somewhere down the (next) page - that's so annoying if you have to look something up...)
- List of players
- List of roles (and number of each role, except maybe for ordos), each role should be defined as detailed as possible. If there are lovers, the type should be specified (whether they die together, etc.), if there are secret roles, Mod should make the players aware that they exist, and to what side they are allied.
- Any special rules or events have to be explained in as much detail as possible.
- Any secret twists have to be announced.
- Deadline time
- Deadline for submission of picks (if differing from general deadline)
- Rules in case of a voting tie
- Modfire rules

7. The game thread should contain a list of players and dead players with time of death and role (unless the role is kept secret intentionally) at the end of every Night and Day.
(- At the end of every Night and Day the mod shall announce which roles get to do what during the coming phase.)
8. Mods should abide by their own rules and make any changes known to the whole village. If there is a possibility of secret "twists", this should be mentioned in the admin thread before the game begins.
9. Mods must not mention the identities of players to other players outside of what is covered in the rules.
10. The mod should reveal the role of a lynched player within 30 minutes of the deadline.
11. The mod has to pm the roles to all players, including ordos


Default Role Descriptions:
1, Unless the mod specifies otherwise, cobblers are ordos in the final count
2. Unless otherwise specified, rangers can protect themselves but cannot protect the same player twice in a row (?)
3. Unless otherwise specified, Hunters are logical (kill only baddies by night, but whoever they picked by day) (?)
4. Unless otherwise specified, a seer does get a dream on Night 1, and can not see cobblers.

I'm wondering if everyone agrees with this list if it'd be possible to edit it into the first post of the thread... just so we don't repeat rules suggestions and such... I think I might have. It's a strong list by the way good work guys!

[Macalaure]

I don't think banning people from playing for a stretch of time will work. Who would enforce it anyway? A mod can always refuse to let a player with a recent history of offenses join. That should be enough.

I can understand how this batch of rules can be a bit overwhelming, but remember that most of it is really obvious stuff. In fact, it makes life easier for mods and players, since mods don't have to go through all those rules in their admin threads over and over again. We've been gathering rules so far and probably should now head into the phase of simplifying, generalizing, combining rules and dropping undesired ones.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

As a veteran player as far back as the first BD WW game, I'd like to think I'm important.

Oh who am I kidding... we all know I am.

To put it frankly, the more hoops one has to jump through, the less fun it's going to be for everyone.

I think that rather than compiling a list of rules, we should write up a glossary of terms and traditions. "Ordo: aligned in the final count with the villagers; no special powers." "Wolf: aligned in the final count with the wolves; interacts with the wolves during the Night phase." Not rules, but a general paradigm. The things, basically, that we take for granted, but that new players might not. Not rules of how it should be in a game, but descriptions of how it usually has been.

Therein still lies a risk of somebody saying something in a game (I have most definitely 'played stupid' to gauge reactions) and having an instant, "Fea, please look at page 4 of X Thread where Barrowdowner says "_"." I feel that a great deal of the dynamism and spontaneity of games will be lost if we try too hard to limit understanding of how they *should* work.

However I believe that it is significant to have a couple major standbys.

But I think they can be summarized.

1) Special roles and special rules do not need to be explained (otherwise there goes the secret) but they *should* be announced in a reasonable way. Like, "By the way, there's a secret role." As long as it's understood by the village that there are one or more variables to contend with, it's okay to have unannounced variables.

When performing experiments, scientists require dependent and independent variables because if you have nothing concrete to compare your findings to, then there's no objective way to look at your findings.

Same goes for werewolf: the nature of the roles provides us with dependent variables and we can judge behaviors and evidence accordingly. As long as we know how many bad guys there are, for example, (or as long as we know that we don't know), we are able to measure and surmise.

If we're just told to play and that we'll find out later?

I once modded a game that became a wee bit legendary and I still haven't quite lived that reputation down. It was announced before the game started that I wasn't going to reveal roles upon deaths and that I'd let the village know when the game ended, and that until that point they should do their level best to kill the bad guys.

As the mod, the intention was always to have a last person standing. I'd intended to show that you can find suspicious behavior anywhere, and you can 'prove' without doubt that somebody is evil whether or not they are. I was basically just subverting assumptions that you can objectively do anything. It was a distinctly cerebral game, very philosophical in its approach and its playing out. There were only two wolves because teams didn't matter so much. But when both wolves died within two days? I kept the game going. But there were never any illusions that I wasn't messing with everybody. It was an invitational game and there was full disclosure with each golden ticket that I was tampering with assumptions. I didn't say how, but it was announced that the game was abnormal and that it existed to amuse me.

Basically, I gave the village warning that I knew more than they did about what was going to happen, and I stuck with the one concrete fact that the winner was going to be the last person alive regardless of their role.

But the point was that I announced that something was going to be weird.

I don't think mods should have to give full disclosure on what they plan to surprise the players with, but I do believe they should disclose that a surprise exists.

2) Assume your players have never played before, and describe your roles and rules accordingly.

3) The reason we have mods is to make split second decisions when the unexpected arises. As long as the mod is clearly making a valiant effort toward a fun and fair game, we should fully accept their decision making.

4) Co-mods are okay, as are substitutes, as long as privileged information remains privileged. For instance, if FeaMod can't make deadline, and I call up NiennaOrdo to post that Mira is dead and she was a wolf, I'm not filling in Ni with any information she wouldn't immediately have upon reading that same post I'd write. "Let the village know that-" is one thing. But "Hey NiennaOrdo (who's still alive), would you let SeerLari know that MiraWolf is a wolf, and then RangerRikae needs to choose her protection!"

That? Not so okay. Basically it should probably be assumed that in a pinch, passing on PUBLIC information is okay, whereas any living players should not be made aware of secret information regardless of what the mod is up to. (unless, as mentioned in rule 1, it's already a given that the mod might do this).

--

Basically my suggestions boil down to:

1) you must disclose that you have something to disclose, even if you don't disclose the nature of the disclosure

2) be really detailed in your explanations of rules and roles even if you think everybody already knows what you're talking about

3) don't tell living players anything they're not allowed to know

4) our list of 'rules' shouldn't be rules, but should be assumed definitions that can be ignored at will as long as the mod follows rules 1 and 2.