WW General rules discussion - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the phantom · 07-07-2010, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Other requirements surely are too complicated and tricky to come up with in any "objective" way. Although a person who has played five games but has disappeared in every game, or something like that ie. showing a total lack of interest and / or consideration for other players, could be refused to mod until shown some more solid understranding & commitment. But who would draw the line and where? Tricky.

Not if you just all agree to hand over all authority to me.

At the start of each game the mod can submit his or her rules to me and I judge whether or not they are satisfactory. "You need to clear this up" and "This won't work" and "This is silly, so no"... Long story short I send back an edited version of their rules and only then can the game commence.

And as far as player behavior, I will read games as they are played and on my official "Phantom's Werewolf Judging Thread" I will declare certain behaviors that I witness as being good examples or bad examples. For instance, I could list at the end of each day which members had an amount of participation that was less than desirable. Also, I could point out any behavior that was annoying, and chide noobs for various noob mistakes (public ridicule can be a very effective teaching tool, or at the least can prove highly entertaining to others). In addition, I will hand out yellow cards and red cards via PM. Just like in soccer, a red card would kick a player out of that game and keep him from participating in the following game, where as a yellow card would just be a strong warning.

Example- Lommy comes under suspicion and lashes out at her attackers with an insulting profanity-laced post (you know how she is sometimes). So I send a PM reading "YELLOW CARD- without altering the meaning edit post number XX so that it is appropriate by the end of the day or you will receive a red card and be modfired and banned from the next game as well."

My role on the Downs would be differentiated clearly from that of current game mods by referring to them as "Mod" or "ModGod" and me as "Supreme ModGod", "Eternal Werewolf Ruler ModGod", or "Grand Emperor of Wolvery" (or some other simple little title befitting my humble role).

I am 100% certain that the masses will not adopt this wonderful plan of mine, and I am just as certain that it would function beautifully if given the chance.

You think I'm attempting to goad you into handing me the power just to prove me wrong? Ridiculous. But of course if you don't hand me the power you will be proving Phantom right. Again.

Boromir88 · 07-07-2010, 04:03 AM

Are you Para, phantom? This was your plan from the very beginning, no doubt?

But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it.

For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway.

Banning members from games seems way too over-the top. You don't get banned from the forum for 6 months if you don't post in the Books thread, so like Rikae asked about inappropriate language...why here? And who's going to police that? The Admins won't, and when morm gets busy I doubt that's something he wants to pay attention too (and I'm not letting phantom have that kind of power!

). Yes, we may all get annoyed if someone keeps signing up and then keeps getting mod-fired for not participating, but that's something the Mods have to watch. We don't need any universal banning rules.

I'm running short on time, gotta get to work for another 11 hour day *sigh*. But for organization purposes, maybe we can break this down to...

For all WW-participants: (this will include no inappropriate language, insulting, rules regarding meta-gaming...etc)

For Game Mods: I think having a type of format like the RPG forum would be helpful.

-Something like, ALL 1st posts of the admin threads must include...theme, DL rules, roles (and full explanation of them), list of players, voting rules. Anything else?

For the mod-list:

--------

Getting into banning players for reasons beyond the obvious (like actually breaking forum rules) is a bridge too far.

Nerwen · 07-07-2010, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it.

For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway.

Yes, I think it's better to err on the side of having too few rules than too many. I believe what we should be aiming for is more in the nature of a set of guidelines and role-descriptions rather than laws.

The exception for me would be the points about mods needing to be clear from the start about how their particular games work, and not revealing living players' roles for no good reason (or otherwise giving one team an unfair advantage).

Mithalwen · 07-07-2010, 05:30 AM

I suppose this isn't really any of my business since I don't play werewolf anymore but I do think if you have got to the point of needing a rule book it really has got out of hand.

It started out as a fun thing and now you need lists of rules and committees? What next a signed contract before playing?

I know from experience that you can think you have all bases covered and things will happen that will necessitate invoking the divine right of moderators. I am sure I did things that would have contravened many of the proposed rules but I tried to do nothing that altered the mechanics of the game even if some things altered the dynamics... However my greatest problem arose because either half my players didn't read the rules or for some reason decided that they didn't apply to them. So I don't think a great list of regulations helps. Noone reads them.

I modded game 5 and hadn't played all the previous ones.... however I realise that there are a large number of werewolf players who don't otherwise participate on the board and that is a different dynamic to the original games where Downers played ww as a sideline....

Nerwen · 07-07-2010, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I suppose this isn't really any of my business since I don't play werewolf anymore but I do think if you have got to the point of needing a rule book it really has got out of hand.

It started out as a fun thing and now you need lists of rules and committees? What next a signed contract before playing?

Well, my idea, as I keep saying, is for this to be a set of guidelines and role-definitions, mainly to help new players out and avoid confusion.

Rikae · 07-07-2010, 06:13 AM

Boro -
I think you misunderstood what I meant. First of all, profanity etc. is not allowed on the 'downs in general, and WW players shouldn't get a free pass. That's what I was saying; somehow you seem to have read the opposite into it. I wasn't, however, saying players should actually be banned from the 'downs or from the forum for not playing games they sign up for - but if a player repeatedly signs up and doesn't play, why should the next mod have to sign them up on their request, knowing they'll most likely be a no-show? It hasn't been a problem lately, but a while back there were quite a few players doing this, and it disrupts the game mechanics needlessly. I'm not talking about people who are busy and have to drop out or announce they'll be absent for a few days, but people who simply don't show up, with no explanation;, repeatedly. Remember xyzzy?

Mith -
I hope these rules are going to be common sense for all the veteran players; the point is to ensure that new players coming in, and especially new players wishing to mod, know what is the "norm" around here and what other players expect the rules to be. Most of them are either simple game mechanics ("don't PM people you're not allowed to PM") or default definitions of terms that the mods can change, as long as they do so explicitly in the admin thread.
I had an active role in all this, and I'm not doing it to change Barrowdowns werewolf, but to protect it. After seeing days spent trying to convince a player that PMing other players randomly was not allowed, seeing a mod invoke new rules he had never mentioned to the village and PM the roles of gifteds to wolves for no reason, and another player persist in PMing non-packmates with questions, I think we need a way to be sure players and mods are starting on the same page. We've had an influx of new players who are coming to the 'downs (as far as I know) just to play Werewolf, and who come in with a background in similar, but different, games and different assumptions about how the game works. It's not fair to the older players or to these newbies to fill the game threads with debates over how Werewolf should be played. Usually it's been possible to teach new players the ropes over the course of their first couple games, but when there are too many at once, when newbies want to mod, or when newbies don't seem willing to learn how the game is played here, it becomes a problem.

Nerwen -
Ok, fair enough. I'll take it out. I did mean, though, that a player can't change their winning conditions - I wanted to prevent a situation like in a previous game where there was a lot of confusion over how the Werebear role worked. I guess, though, that such requirements for winning should be in the admin thread and referring to it should be sufficient. Still, part of the idea here is to state the obvious so we don't need to explain it again and again (like the PMing and deadline rules).

Rikae · 07-07-2010, 06:23 AM

Another thing -
Boro, I don't think there is a suggested rule about reading the Admin thread at this point anyway, unless I missed it. Or do you mean the rule about reading the general rules? Yes, you can't enforce such a thing, but at least if someone is breaking one, such as a mod who doesn't turn up when they should or a player who PMs people they shouldn't, you can refer them to the rules and move on.. (Also, a player who is confused about something that wasn't satisfactorily clarified by the mod will have a place to go for answers.)

07-07-2010, 04:03 AM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Are you Para, phantom? This was your plan from the very beginning, no doubt? But honestly, we should consider slashing some of these regulations, too many hoops to jump through and even I won't want to sign up anymore. Just because be personally annoyed with something, doesn't mean there needs to be a rule on it. For example, I get peeved when I can tell someone didn't read the Admin thread, but how do you watch something like that? I could have a mod-fire rule "don't read the Admin thread, bye bye." But that doesn't mean it should be made into a universal rule. Stuff like mod-fire rules should be left up to the game mods, and shouldn't be all that rigid anyway. Banning members from games seems way too over-the top. You don't get banned from the forum for 6 months if you don't post in the Books thread, so like Rikae asked about inappropriate language...why here? And who's going to police that? The Admins won't, and when morm gets busy I doubt that's something he wants to pay attention too (and I'm not letting phantom have that kind of power! ). Yes, we may all get annoyed if someone keeps signing up and then keeps getting mod-fired for not participating, but that's something the Mods have to watch. We don't need any universal banning rules. I'm running short on time, gotta get to work for another 11 hour day sigh. But for organization purposes, maybe we can break this down to... For all WW-participants: (this will include no inappropriate language, insulting, rules regarding meta-gaming...etc) For Game Mods: I think having a type of format like the RPG forum would be helpful. -Something like, ALL 1st posts of the admin threads must include...theme, DL rules, roles (and full explanation of them), list of players, voting rules. Anything else? For the mod-list: -------- Getting into banning players for reasons beyond the obvious (like actually breaking forum rules) is a bridge too far. __________________ Fenris Penguin

07-07-2010, 05:30 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I suppose this isn't really any of my business since I don't play werewolf anymore but I do think if you have got to the point of needing a rule book it really has got out of hand. It started out as a fun thing and now you need lists of rules and committees? What next a signed contract before playing? I know from experience that you can think you have all bases covered and things will happen that will necessitate invoking the divine right of moderators. I am sure I did things that would have contravened many of the proposed rules but I tried to do nothing that altered the mechanics of the game even if some things altered the dynamics... However my greatest problem arose because either half my players didn't read the rules or for some reason decided that they didn't apply to them. So I don't think a great list of regulations helps. Noone reads them. I modded game 5 and hadn't played all the previous ones.... however I realise that there are a large number of werewolf players who don't otherwise participate on the board and that is a different dynamic to the original games where Downers played ww as a sideline.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-07-2010, 06:13 AM	#6
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Boro - I think you misunderstood what I meant. First of all, profanity etc. is not allowed on the 'downs in general, and WW players shouldn't get a free pass. That's what I was saying; somehow you seem to have read the opposite into it. I wasn't, however, saying players should actually be banned from the 'downs or from the forum for not playing games they sign up for - but if a player repeatedly signs up and doesn't play, why should the next mod have to sign them up on their request, knowing they'll most likely be a no-show? It hasn't been a problem lately, but a while back there were quite a few players doing this, and it disrupts the game mechanics needlessly. I'm not talking about people who are busy and have to drop out or announce they'll be absent for a few days, but people who simply don't show up, with no explanation;, repeatedly. Remember xyzzy? Mith - I hope these rules are going to be common sense for all the veteran players; the point is to ensure that new players coming in, and especially new players wishing to mod, know what is the "norm" around here and what other players expect the rules to be. Most of them are either simple game mechanics ("don't PM people you're not allowed to PM") or default definitions of terms that the mods can change, as long as they do so explicitly in the admin thread. I had an active role in all this, and I'm not doing it to change Barrowdowns werewolf, but to protect it. After seeing days spent trying to convince a player that PMing other players randomly was not allowed, seeing a mod invoke new rules he had never mentioned to the village and PM the roles of gifteds to wolves for no reason, and another player persist in PMing non-packmates with questions, I think we need a way to be sure players and mods are starting on the same page. We've had an influx of new players who are coming to the 'downs (as far as I know) just to play Werewolf, and who come in with a background in similar, but different, games and different assumptions about how the game works. It's not fair to the older players or to these newbies to fill the game threads with debates over how Werewolf should be played. Usually it's been possible to teach new players the ropes over the course of their first couple games, but when there are too many at once, when newbies want to mod, or when newbies don't seem willing to learn how the game is played here, it becomes a problem. Nerwen - Ok, fair enough. I'll take it out. I did mean, though, that a player can't change their winning conditions - I wanted to prevent a situation like in a previous game where there was a lot of confusion over how the Werebear role worked. I guess, though, that such requirements for winning should be in the admin thread and referring to it should be sufficient. Still, part of the idea here is to state the obvious so we don't need to explain it again and again (like the PMing and deadline rules). Last edited by Rikae; 07-07-2010 at 06:17 AM.

07-07-2010, 06:23 AM	#7
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Another thing - Boro, I don't think there is a suggested rule about reading the Admin thread at this point anyway, unless I missed it. Or do you mean the rule about reading the general rules? Yes, you can't enforce such a thing, but at least if someone is breaking one, such as a mod who doesn't turn up when they should or a player who PMs people they shouldn't, you can refer them to the rules and move on.. (Also, a player who is confused about something that wasn't satisfactorily clarified by the mod will have a place to go for answers.)