The gods must be... blind?

[LadyBrooke]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on the Valar's action (or inaction) during most of the first 2 Ages of Middle-earth, I would have to say they remained blind. And hard of hearing as well.

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

[Blind Guardian]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

Does Aule have some kind of chemical floating around in his workshop that makes the beings in there go crazy? Aule makes Dwarves; Sauron becomes a Dark Lord; Saruman tries to become a Dark Lord; Feanor turns into a homicidal paranoid elf; the Noldor in general become nutcase rebels. The only normal one seems to be Mahtam and I bet he secretly runs around killing bugs with a flamethrower or something. You can't be Feanor's father in law and teacher without being half insane.

Not Very Serious Conclusion: Whatever the Valar had that allowed them to be so far out of reality I want some. After all who's to say that Gandalf really got his smoking habit from hobbits and not Manwe and Varda who were too busy smoking to remember the people they were supposed to be watching. "Sauron? Who's tha-AAAAH GIANT PURPLE BUNNY WITH GREEN WINGS AND FLAMES FOR EYES!!!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!"

True and funny. I think that while in the Void there was no light and nothing to see. But when they came onto Arda there was stuff to see so there had to be light. Unless YOU want to be running into trees and stubmling over rocks! (then Melkor would have said: let's steal the Flame Imparshable! And the other would have beat him up. What? Punish him and he might not have done anything )

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by LadyBrooke

Don't forget that by the end of the Third Age they had managed to lose two Istari. Not to mention that out of 5 chosen, exactly one managed to fulfill what they were supposed to do. Sometime I wonder how the Valar came up with that particular combination of them. Why did Manwe let the choices of Saruman (Aule's pupil) and Radagast (who seems the type to be Yavanna's pupil) become a marital spat gone very very wrong?

to reluctanctly get more serious after a unfloolowably funny post but to go slightly off topic - I think I read in "Mr Baggins" that Tolkien reconsidered and felt that Radagast did not entirely fail but that his special relationship with the birds facilitated the eagles' crucial interventions in both the Quest of Erebor and at the end of The War of the Ring.

[LadyBrooke]

Radagast did do good but I question the particular wisdom of sending him and Saruman both. Usually when you want something done like the destruction of the dark lord you at least chose members who won't belittle other member of the group. Saruman on the other hand seem s to feel free to make fun of Radagast.

And besides if it were me I wouldn't have chosen any of Aule's followers. Whether it is the desire to make things or something else, they seem far too easy to lead astray

[Absinthe]

Maybe it was setting a thief to catch a thief - one follower of Aule might best understand another and be more effective in the fight against them. It didn't work out but it doens't mean it was wrong to send him.

It was the sequence of events catalysed by Saruman's treachery that gave the quest a chance of success.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I have long wondered about the fact that Sauron and Saruman both started out as Maiar of Aulë. A while back it occurred to me that perhaps the issue that lead both of them, as well as Melkor and Aulë himself, into trouble (and why there was so much conflict between those two Valar) is one of materialism. Not necessarily materialism as we think of it (although heaven knows it was a failing of Melkor's) but rather that both Aulë and Melkor dealt heavily with the very material aspects of Arda. A love for the substances of the incarnate world can, in the right (or wrong) kind of mind be all too easily twisted into a lust. Aulë loved those things so much he strayed into error because he wanted to teach the incarnate Children before it was time for them to awaken; in Melkor and the others, it became a desire to control/own the incarnate world. Obviously, most of Aulë's people avoid that failing, but one might suppose that they are familiar with the desire. Thus it may have made perfectly good sense to send one of his Maiar as an Istar, presuming that they may have better insight into the workings of Sauron's mind — though I would've been leery about letting someone who was so eager to go have the job. (I feel the same way about a lot of politicians. )

[Mithadan]

Interesting thought.

Melkor was jealous of him, for Aule was most like himself in thought and in powers... [both] desired to make things of theirown that should be new and unthought of by others, and delighted in the praise of their skill.

However, Aule

did not envy the work of others, but sought and gave counsel.

Thus Aule was not materialistic in the sense of desiring things. His making of the Dwarves was merely a function of his desire to bring new things into being; it was in his nature. Nonetheless, he "remained faithful to Eru and submitted all that he did to his will."

The difference between Aule and Morgoth was the desire of mastery. Sauron shared this desire. Saruman may have merely learned it or became corrupted by it by studying Sauron too closely. I wondered if the Balrogs were of Aule's people but the Silmarillion at least does not confirm this. If this were the case, your argument may have carried greater weight with me, Ibrin.

And welcome to the Downs, Absinthe. Good post! Hmmm, what older member here seemed to be a fan of absinthe?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Well, I wasn't meaning that Aulë himself was materialistic or that being one of his followers naturally led to it. One can assume that a true follower of the Smith would also learn his humility toward his work and his love of the One. It's just that I've known a lot of artistic-types who let the praise for their work go to their heads — and some who let their lack of praise (comparatively speaking) embitter them. The depiction of Salieri in Amadeus comes to mind, and makes me think of Saruman. It may be that Aulë's people were a target for Melkor because of the rivalry between him and Aulë, or that some of them were more vulnerable to his wiles because he understood how to get to them, but as far as I know, Tolkien never mentioned it. It's just speculation on my part.