Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, if I understood what Fea said correctly, then eurgh for phantom already having three votes! Disgust, utter disgust.

Anyway, as for my options:

Foley
Glirdy - okay, not really probably (see above - just out of "dragging into the light", but now with phantom having so many votes, I feel more like putting there somebody I trust, not somebody about whom I just want to get info)
Greenie (has 1 already)
Izzy (1)
Lommy (1)
Nerwen (1)
Nog
Wilwa (1)

I would prefer to vote for somebody who already has a vote, so as to ensure that somebody gets there. We need to get there as many people as we can, like it was said many times. The worst thing would be to have dozen of people with one vote and only phantom for rep

So out of those Greenie's been a possibility for several people, so I may leave her for the others. Same with Lommy, whom I am not so terribly keen to vote anyway. Nerwen was mentioned partially by some, though not strongly, I might vote her for the sake of it, but... Right now I would prefer Foley, if only I was sure that somebody else will vote her too, so that my vote is not wasted. Any volunteers? Wilwa is right now a bit enigmatic to me, so maybe leaving that be for now.

EDIT: x-ed with several...

[Eönwë]

Well, out of Legate and Greenie, I'm going to vote

++Greenie



Because I like her reasoning and don't think that she's evil.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Phantom

Raise your hand if you know precisely who is a true orc and thus deserving of your vote.

Of course they don't know my alignment! Who knows anyone's alignment?! I mean, really, what a meaningless comment to make. Voting for me is no different than voting for anyone else, other than the fact that I am more likely than most to show up and vote and be vocal and vote according to a plan.

Not entirely untrue, but definitely taken out of context. Phantom - it seems pretty clear to me that Lommy was talking about how early Sally and Lottie both threw away their vote onto you for no reason (they can quote statistics all they like, I have yet to see an actual full-fledged reason for them other than the fact that, well, you're you).

Originally Posted by Phantom

I even got the vote train rolling, which is of course about the most important thing we'll be looking at in this contest.

I don't believe you did. Just because the votes were for you, it doesn't follow that you started the entire thing, so I think you're attributing a bit much to your own good self, as usual.

(Sidenote: It's hard for me to be genuinely angry at Phantom after having met the guy, but man, he does frustrate me sometimes. )

Originally Posted by Rune

It's not a meaningless comment. She's right. At least Sally threw her vote to you directly without hearing anything from anybody else. In Day 1 there are definitely ways to get ideas or hunches about people, and she didn't even wait for that. You and Sally treat Day 1 as though it were a perfect waste, and Lommy treats it as though it were not, and you bash her for it. Sir, we may all be 'evil orcs' but I'm getting a feeling that you're more evil than the rest of us, because you're willing to trample on people and their ideas.


But it IS clear-cut, Phantom. People should wait and let their ignorance be enlightened if at all possible before voting.
And he IS right about not voting in ignorance. Absolutely he's right. To not vote is idiotic, but to vote blindly and out of ignorance is even worse.

I really like this post of Rune's. He seems more clearheaded and focused than I usually see him (take this with a grain of salt as it's been ages since I played with the man), and I like it.

Originally Posted by Phantom

You know better than this, Boro. To vote for me at that stage was frankly quite impressive in some ways. On one hand, it displays a "Might as well" attitude, which shows nerve as well as an understanding of where we are on this first day. And also, it fed in nicely to the underlying motive which was simply to create discussion and get the ball rolling.

Wrong, wrong, wrong on all counts. "Impressive"? Really? Would you be saying the same thing had Sally and Lottie voted someone like, say, Folwren? A 'might as well attitude' shows 'nerve'? I think not, it pretty clearly shows that Sally and Lottie don't really feel like playing before Day 2 starts (which, in a sidenote, also makes it look like they are sure they'll be around for said Day 2... something to consider). An 'understanding of where we are on this first day'? Coming from you, that translates to "Vote for Phantom because today won't matter and it will be amusing!" Well, so what? While amusing the moddesses would be a happy side effect of playing this game, I personally am here to win. So are you, so you've said, which makes me wonder if there's not some sort of contradiction here.

Greenie's #83 probably sums this up more succinctly than I have, but I'm typing my replies as I see posts. Speaking of Greenie, she's another one I like today.

Given all this, though, I do think Phantom has a point here, re: Inzil:

Originally Posted by Phantom

You agreed way too quickly to something that is not nearly so clear cut as you put forth, and your suggestion of not voting, well... I really don't like it. If all the SoE are voting for each other, encouraging others to sit on their votes would be a great way to gain larger sway over the lynch.

And Inzil's defense here -

Originally Posted by Inzil

I didn't suggest not voting as a practice, but I find it preferable to making a random one without examining as many people as possible. And I also said anyone not voting should be held accountable and made to explain.

...I don't know, something just seems wrong with it. I think it's the "and I also said" that is pinging my radar, as if Inzil is, I don't know, trying to please everyone, which is an Elf trademark.

Originally Posted by Phantom

But what's so wrong about voting before you have a hunch on this day?! Seriously, what are the odds you'll get a halfway strong leaning, and what are the odds it will be right? Not to mention, most of the people throwing suspicion around right now are doing so based upon the early voting and reactions to it! If everyone followed your advice (and not voted), we'd be back at square one as far as suspicions!

Simple. How are we to analyze votes tomorrow were everyone to say "oh, disregard yesterday's vote, it was simply random"? It's insanely easy for a wolf to hide behind such a move, and it gets the town nowhere with analyses and such. I fail to see why you wish to deny information to the town, Phantom.

Just saw Mira's vote at #103, and while frustrating... it really doesn't surprise me too much.

Originally Posted by Folwren

Phantom, I'm curious - are you going to be at all flattered when you become a rep only because people voted for you without thinking?

Hahaha, I love this person (guy? girl?).

Originally Posted by Phantom

Don't act like those early voters made some sort of serious sacrifice by voting early. They didn't vote stupidly- they voted differently.

Voting for someone based solely on the strength of A) their personality and B) what they've done in past games is stupid, sorry. I love Sally and Lottie to pieces, but it was.

I wonder - was there anything in the rules about not voting ourselves? I should go check that.

Right now my vote could go to Rune, Nerwen, Lommy, Greenie, or Izzy. I need to think a bit more. I could also vote myself.

Edit: X'ed since Eonwe's vote (I think).

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I would prefer to vote for somebody who already has a vote, so as to ensure that somebody gets there. We need to get there as many people as we can, like it was said many times. The worst thing would be to have dozen of people with one vote and only phantom for rep

Indeed. It would be nice to have a couple more who can approach or rival tp's power, for balance.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So out of those Greenie's been a possibility for several people, so I may leave her for the others. Same with Lommy, whom I am not so terribly keen to vote anyway. Nerwen was mentioned partially by some, though not strongly, I might vote her for the sake of it, but... Right now I would prefer Foley, if only I was sure that somebody else will vote her too, so that my vote is not wasted. Any volunteers? Wilwa is right now a bit enigmatic to me, so maybe leaving that be for now.

I've been leaning toward Boro, but I could possibly go for Lommy or Wilwa as well, since both seem reasonable at the moment.

x/d with Eönwë, xed, and tp.

[the phantom]

What's the obsession with balance anyway? Do you honestly want balance?! We ought to wish for lopsided domination by the orcs! Who cares how many votes I have so long as you don't think I'm a SoE (which I'm not).

Originally Posted by Shasta

How are we to analyze votes tomorrow were everyone to say "oh, disregard yesterday's vote, it was simply random"? It's insanely easy for a wolf to hide behind such a move, and it gets the town nowhere with analyses and such. I fail to see why you wish to deny information to the town, Phantom.

Ah, but who would truly accept such reasoning tomorrow? I mean, heck, you're already suspicious of it.

Originally Posted by Shasta

I have yet to see an actual full-fledged reason for them other than the fact that, well, you're you

And what's wrong with that anyway? Perhaps Lottie thought, "All right then, I'll play his game. Let's see where he's trying to go with this." For all I know Lottie and Sally are testing me with the power and will come out against me tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Voting for someone based solely on the strength of A) their personality and B) what they've done in past games is stupid, sorry. I love Sally and Lottie to pieces, but it was.

Past behaviors are not to be completely ignored, nor is personality. Those things always factor in at some level when you are with familiar faces, and so I think it is rather harsh to accuse them of being stupid when, to this point, they and Mira are the only villagers that I know for a fact have voted for a true orc and not a SoE.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Phantom

they and Mira are the only villagers that I know for a fact have voted for a true orc and not a SoE.

And you can't expect us to be led around by the nose and believe you when you say that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am basically half asleep already... so... the idea is... will anybody vote for Foley if I do? That's my dilemma. Otherwise, Greenie's been voted for, I could vote Izzy, but she seems to have some support possible from several people, Nerwen and wilwa possibly too, whatever...

So should I be brave and point people towards Folwren instead of just talking about it, or go with somebody else - probably Nerwen...

[Celuien]

That was quite a twisty read - quicker to get lost in that than in the tunnels. Sorry if I repeat things, as I'll admit some of it ended up getting skimmed.

My thoughts on whom I'd like to see as a representative at this point...

I want orcs with minds of their own. The SoE are a sneaky group of rats and I'd think that even with this representative system, louder members of the group are apt to try to steer voting, especially in the chaos of the first days. That said, I equally dislike having the votes being dominated by a few since that sets up far too easy a hiding place for quiet orc-killers. And a position with all of the power concentrated in one place would be tempting for the tricky, loud, steering SoE, if they exist.

I find nothing odd about tp's campaign to lead, but I don't think it helps me decide if he's a true orc or not. In any case, I think that debate has been discussed extensively enough above, and I'm not inclined to go there again.

Would you like to see me dressed up a certain way in a picture? Perhaps you'd like me to visit? Or you'd like me to never visit? Or would you just like to receive some cold hard cash in the mail? I am absolutely willing to negotiate. Name the price of your vote.

Cel- I'll buy you another one of those awesome outfits you wore on New Years.

As much as I would like to accept (oh, for a visit or photo!), I'm afraid I can't today because I do want to spread some of the representing vote power around and because I want to get more discussion and voting trails for tomorrow.

For the rep vote, I don't think I will go with Boro. I don't want the rest of the day to become a Boro vs Phantom match. So I'd like to go with one of the quieter (so it seems at this point) and more difficult to read members of the group.

++ Foley for rep

More in a bit. I'm sure the talk has been continuing while I was typing...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Inzil

Why?

It goes back to that tantrum I threw at the beginning- the fact that we orcs are the bad guys, and I'm sick of this wishy-washy nonsense about trying to paint ourselves as the good guys. Let's be bad and enjoy it, I say! And Cel came right in displaying that attitude, and it made me smile. So yeah, no other reason than that.

[the phantom]

Shasta- you don't have to have 100% proof of that statement to understand that the point is a nice support for my overall argument. The fact is, what they decided to do had just as much chance of yielding positive results as whatever they would've attempted later in the day, and from my unique perspective I can see quite clearly that they at the least elected an orc. What else do you want me to say?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

The fact is, what they decided to do had just as much chance of yielding positive results as whatever they would've attempted later in the day

This is flawed. Sure, if you want to go by pure statistics, then yes, you can say this. However, this game is not played on statistics alone. If it was, we'd all be accountants, and I wouldn't be playing because I hate math. The fact is, Sally and Lottie both voted before any information could be gathered, based on nothing from inside this particular game. You may say that this fact is irrelevant all you like, the fact is that it's not irrelevant at all. Yes, it's possible that you're innocent and that from your point of view, Sally and Lottie (and Mira) have voted for an orc. However, no one else (not even they) can be for sure that you're an orc, unless they're an elf. And before you reiterate your previous argument, let me state that both Sally and Lottie voted for you before you even showed up, which means they had no in-game basis for voting you, and Mira admittedly read nothing of the thread before voting you so she's basically in the same boat. The fact that they voted you does not mean that they're innocent - in fact I think it points at just the opposite - and I fail to see why you consistently defend them for such an anti-town play.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Izzy

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I really cannot think anymore, and since nobody seems to help me with the particular concern I have now, I will go to sleep now. And since Izzy already got the vote too, then it is clearly of my other options,

++Nerwen for rep

Good night.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by the phantom

It goes back to that tantrum I threw at the beginning- the fact that we orcs are the bad guys, and I'm sick of this wishy-washy nonsense about trying to paint ourselves as the good guys. Let's be bad and enjoy it, I say! And Cel came right in displaying that attitude, and it made me smile. So yeah, no other reason than that.

Haha! Or rather, mwhahaha. None of this "good" nonsense. That sounds like elf talk.