Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Nerwen]

So–

Phantom (3), Lommy (3) Greenie (2), Izzy (2) Nerwen (2)

EDIT:X'd with Izzy.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It seems we already have two "parties" here - and a few bystanders who carefully consider their words not to commit themselves. This Sally - Lottie - tp triangle looks just a bit too obvious to be true. But the moral highground of Shasta - Nerwen - Lommy trio is kind of too neat as well. And the carefulness of Legate -Zil - Glirdy looks soo suspicious...

Gah. Sorry about throwing you guys into these "easy categories": they are my first impressions. I hope I can elaborate on them later and maybe put up some better ideas.

These categories actually do make sense to me - and there defintely are party dynamics at work here.

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I don't see why you are so quick to trust and defend Phantom, Loslote.

I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Perhaps not - but from your own perspective one could think that you would find a good decision easier to make after a bit more time for considering it...

I did not know I would be awake so long, and up until I voted, nothing of great importance had occured. Nerwen was badgering tp because of IC banter, which was the only thing of substance at the time - other than tp's comments and Sallycake's vote.

As for the 'splitting up votes' idea of Vanilwuffin's and Nog's, I think it's a good idea, especially for the earlier Days. Later on, of course, it'd make sense to give more power to someone who who genuniely trust, as opposed to voting for someone else simply because the person you wanted to represent you already had xyr quota of votes for the Day.

Originally posted by Shasta:
I think not, it pretty clearly shows that Sally and Lottie don't really feel like playing before Day 2 starts (which, in a sidenote, also makes it look like they are sure they'll be around for said Day 2... something to consider).

Or couldn't be around to really play before Day 2 starts. And given the size of the village, there's comparatively little risk of wolf-kill than normal.

Oh, by the way, I'm finally back...

EDIT: yeah, I xed with people since Zil's 'why' post.

EDITEDIT: I xed with tons of people because I started this post hours ago, but never got to do anything with it.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Oh, so all Representatives automatically have 2 votes?

Yes. All Reps start with two.

Originally Posted by Storc

So does that mean that they can be split up?

No, they can't. Because it's funnier that way for the mods.

Originally Posted by Shasticle

Hahaha, I love this person (guy? girl?).

Foley is a lassie, and she is highly lovable. I've loved her for years now.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

I think it more prudent than previously, for all to make their thoughts known on players. That way the Rep's have things to read. Of course this is on the hope that they don't simply decide amongst themselves, but take into account what the Non-Rep's think.

Actually everyone will still be allowed to post, but only Reps can vote. So I think that's probably why people are holding off a bit on suspicions and just focusing on who they trust right now.

[satansaloser2005]

Sally has returned!

And I am highly offended.

*goes to argue with Chrome*

[Isabellkya]

Wilwa. Yeah, I realized it after I had already written it, and was just too busy trying to read to delete it. However part of it still stands. Because those who are non-Reps can easily slide into being inactive. They may think it not as important to participate fully, since they don't actually have a vote, and nothing says they should be listened to.

I think if the count is right, those of us left with votes can add those four with singles.
Wilwa, Boro, Foley and Celuien?


X'd with Sally.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

No, they can't. Because it's funnier that way for the mods.

But you said this in the Almighty Rulez: "The Representatives MAY split their votes."

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

But you said this in the Almighty Rulez: "The Representatives MAY split their votes."

Haha FINNNNNNNE. I couldn't remember if I'd specified (though I know Ni and I had talked about it). And I was clearly too lazy to double check.

Strike my former statement. Reps may split their votes.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Wilwa. Yeah, I realized it after I had already written it, and was just too busy trying to read to delete it. However part of it still stands. Because those who are non-Reps can easily slide into being inactive. They may think it not as important to participate fully, since they don't actually have a vote, and nothing says they should be listened to.

Hmm hmm. Which is why it would be good to get quieter players in there, since more active ones will be likely to talk whether they have a vote or not.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Haha FINNNNNNNE. I couldn't remember if I'd specified (though I know Ni and I had talked about it). And I was clearly too lazy to double check.

Haha, *snuggles, hands Moddess a big cup of Timmy's peppermint hot chocolate*

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Haha, *snuggles, hands Moddess a big cup of Timmy's peppermint hot chocolate*

Regardless of how votes go, Wilwa will not be dying today. <3 Sessa.

(I mean, if y'all really do try to kill her, I won't stop you, but y'all should know that her intimate knowledge of my Timmy's love affair means I'll be VERY unhappy if you kill her.)

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

let me state that both Sally and Lottie voted for you before you even showed up, which means they had no in-game basis for voting you,

This is not even true, Shasticle. You were there at the time, too. Surely you remember that tp was very much around before I voted? More so, in fact, than anyone else?

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

Sally voted for you in her first post of the game, second over all. Loslote's was the 17th of the Day. Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

I trusted him to be himself, which meant that he was going to be manipulative, not manipulated. I don't mind accidentally putting a SoE in power nearly as much as putting someone in power who is going to let the SoE walk over them. You see, if the SoE is in power, they have to behave themselves. They're in the spotlight. If someone who is going to let the SoE walk over them is in power, they get burned, not the SoE who manipulated them. Better to have the manipulators in full view, being forced to take responsibilty for their own actions. No, I didn't - and don't, fully - trust The Puddingtom. But I don't need to in order to know that he ought to be in power. He ought to have the chance to actually make good on his promises, not hide behind the mask that is his lack of power.

EDIT: xed with Vanilwuffin and Feanorc The Bemoaned

[Folwren]

Ah hm. I barely remembered deadline. I can only stay to vote.

I see that lots of people have been nominated...I know little about most of the people who have only one vote. But I do know some about Inzil, so I'll go ahead and vote for him.

Oh, wait. He already has two votes...

Okay, only having a little time to glance over stuff, I'm going to go ahead and vote for Celuein. No, not 'cause she voted for me first, but because I like her.

++Celuien

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lottie

I have always been quick to defend people against arguments I consider to be flawed. Nerworc's arguments against tp were, in my opinion, flawed.

Thanks for that "Nerworc". I much prefer it to "Nerwoblin". (Sorry, Fea.)

Now let me explain something: I am fine with phantom being a representative. What I was not fine with was him being the representative. (Or at least ending up with the controlling vote, which was more probable.) Somebody suggested that it's a good idea to give people power and see what they do with it. This is true. However, if one person has total control of the lynch, that takes away much of our chance of drawing any conclusions from it– plus, of course , if that person happens to be an Elf, then we've got no hope of the lynch going well.

EDIT:X'd with many; typo

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Ah hm. I barely remembered deadline. I can only stay to vote.

I see that lots of people have been nominated...I know little about most of the people who have only one vote. But I do know some about Inzil, so I'll go ahead and vote for him.

Zil? No he doesn't. Did I miss something?

EDIT: xed with Nerworc

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Regardless of how votes go, Wilwa will not be dying today. <3 Sessa.

(I mean, if y'all really do try to kill her, I won't stop you, but y'all should know that her intimate knowledge of my Timmy's love affair means I'll be VERY unhappy if you kill her.)

Haha, should we start calling you Fea Hortons? Cause it sounds like you and Timmy are meant to be. <3

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Thanks for that "Nerworc". I much prefer it to "Nerwoblin". (Sorry, Fea.)

I suppose if you'd rather work than mischievously wobble...

[Isabellkya]

++Wilwa

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Haha, should we start calling you Fea Hortons? Cause it sounds like you and Timmy are meant to be. <3

You and only you may call me Timmy.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now let me explain something: I am fine with phantom being a representative. What I was not fine with was him being the representative. (Or at least ending up with the controlling vote, which was more probable.) Somebody suggested that it's a good idea to give people power and see what they do with it. This is true. However, if one person has total control of the lynch, that takes away much of our chance of drawing any conclusions from it– plus, of course , if that person happens to be a Elf, then we've got no hope of the lynch going well.

That makes quite a lot more sense. As it was, I was having a hard time trying to figure out where your aversion to him as a rep was coming from. I do agree with you that he shouldn't be the only rep. Logically, that really wouldn't make sense.

EDIT: xed with Feanorc The Dearly Departed, Izzy, and Feanorc Of The Tragic Murder

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

You and only you may call me Timmy.

Haha, okee. *feels special*

And I'm guessing Foley got Inzil and Izzy's names mixed up.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Haha, okee. *feels special*

And I'm guessing Foley got Inzil and Izzy's names mixed up.

That's probably it. Certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

3-vote:

the phantom
Lommy

2-vote:

Nerwen
Izzy
Wilwa
Greenie
Celuien

All players may discuss who to lynch, but only these people may cast votes.

[Folwren]

Oh dear. Did I get Inzil and Izzy mixed up? Drat, I did. Sorry, Inzil. Not that my vote would've done much good 'cause you didn't even have one vote anyway. I don't like those two nick-names, they're too close. Can we call Isabellkya Kya instead of Izzy? I think Kya sounds cooler.

So, does Lommy's and Phantom's votes weigh more than the other reps?

[satansaloser2005]

Inzil/Zil is also called Dun by a few people. I feel that it helps alleviate confusion in cases such as these.

Also, I think Bell would be lovely for our darling Izzy, should she undergo a name change. It's certainly easier to rhyme, and we know how important that is to our lovely moddess Fea.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

3-vote:

the phantom
Lommy

2-vote:

Nerwen
Izzy
Wilwa
Greenie
Celuien

All players may discuss who to lynch, but only these people may cast votes.

Well, Puddingtom will certainly enjoy being in the presence of so many lovely ladies.

And now I need to go to sleep, I should be around quite a bit tomorrow (for only the second half of the day due to sleep and early classes) and especially the last 5ish hours.

*goes bed time*

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Oh dear. Did I get Inzil and Izzy mixed up? Drat, I did. Sorry, Inzil. Not that my vote would've done much good 'cause you didn't even have one vote anyway. I don't like those two nick-names, they're too close. Can we call Isabellkya Kya instead of Izzy? I think Kya sounds cooler.

So, does Lommy's and Phantom's votes weigh more than the other reps?

1. I call him Zil and her Izzy. I got used to it after a while, but it is rather confusing. Switching to Kya now would be even more confusing for me, though.

2. They both have three votes and the other reps have two each.

EDIT: xed with Vanilwuffin

[Folwren]

k, I just briefly glanced over the forty plus posts I missed in my absense. I'd like to suggest that we kill Phantom this evening. Using his own logic, the first death is a stab in the dark anyway, so it may as well be him, right? Plus, he's beginning to really get on my nerves. He reminds me of my older brother a few years ago, before my older brother became a husband and a father...a stuck up know-it-all before he'd really met the world and been taken down a few notches.

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

X-posted with Sally, Lottie, and Wilwa

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Really, Mirandir? Did you really not do any reading before voting for Phantom? Weren't you paying attention? Guess not. Phantom, I'm curious - are you going to be at all flattered when you become a rep only because people voted for you without thinking?

Why actually I wasn't. Which I made perfectly clear in my first post of the day.

[Celuien]

As long as we're talking nicknames, may I reclaim X'ed?

I have to sign out for the evening, but promise to be back and paying attention.

[Nerwen]

Thank you, thank you, Orcs and Orcesses. As your elected representative, I'll do all I can to see that the SoE are brought to justice, and that the form that justice takes will be as amusing for us all as possible!

Originally Posted by Folwren

But...putting all that personal feeling aside, let me say this. When I played with Phantom not long ago, I did not get a feeling of guiltiness from him. I felt him trustworthy and stable. Come to find out, he was. In this game? No. I feel no trustworthiness in him at all. I think he is riding on the wave of a huge bluff.

If that was Glirdan's game, he was a baddie for much of it, though.

Oh, and regarding the term "baddie"– I still refuse to submit to the phantom's dictum that we should speak of the village as "evil" and the wolves (Elves) as "good". Too confusing. I've been in reversed-alignment villages before, and we didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense. He claims he wants to help the village, but is he doing so, or is he just making a lot of people mad at him and muddying the waters while he's doing it?

The trouble when dealing with phantom is that he does have a rather notorious ego , to the point where he might well see their votes for him as perfectly logical. His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot, because he ought to know that wouldn't be terribly helpful to the village, not to mention his promise not to lynch people who elected him.

EDIT:X'd with Xed; wording and typos.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Loslote

It's not logical that he has his own opinion, eh? If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them. What you're saying is that we should lynch tp because he has a different opinion. This is simply not logical.

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Nerwen, just 'cause Phantom has a huge ego doesn't mean we shouldn't deflate it for him. It would do him good, I imagine. He might be able to wear regular hat sizes again instead of having to special order them.

[Folwren]

I'm off to bed and I might not be back on for quite a while.

~Folworc

[Boromir88]

That's a pretty good spread, it's a little better than a 1 to 3 representation. There aren't any California's either who can bulldoze the smaller ones. We've got a bunch of Ohio swing-voters!

Plus I like having several quiet, and cautious, (perhaps Legate would say "less radical" ) representatives. This way some of the sneaky quiet ones, who I start over looking fast will in a more noticeable position.

With that, I bid thee adieu as I take the rest of this day off. May the lynching be fruitful by serving us an SoE head on a silver platter!

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Lottie, you should know better. Lot's of people have illogical opinions, and their opinions are not considered logical just because it's their personal opinion. Phantom never said, "It's my opinion" he just mostly said, "You're being ridiculous, you are wrong, their votes were perfectly understandable." And when most of the village can't conceive why they voted like that, obviously their votes weren't understandable...

Their votes? I should be saying YOUR votes.

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were. Since you have no immediate way of verifying these assumptions, you can not say that he is illogical. You can say that you disagree, and this would be true. You can even say that you think he is wrong, and explain why. This is, again, sound logic. But to say that he is illogical because you don't like what conclusions his logic draws is not sound logic.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Neither had even given the Day a chance to get rolling before tossing their vote away. Loslote even later asks Nerwen how she could distrust you, given the only banter posts. How could one trust only on banter posts?

How exactly did they "toss away" their votes? They voted. End of story. If they had sat on their bums for a few hours and then voted for me, the result would've been the same- Phantom gains two votes.

How is your vote any better than theirs? Let me ask you, what information do you know right now? Who has been lynched so far? Who has been Night-killed? Which roles have been revealed?

For all you know you just elected a SoE, where as I know for a fact that the ladies you are criticizing elected an orc.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Again, he has not been proven wrong, it is simply your opinion that he is. His arguments contained no illogical jumps, they were simply founded on different assumptions than yours were.

That would be the assumption that he's the best man for the job, yes?

Seriously: unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

So, there is some logic there, but in fact only Lottie used this argument. Sally voted him based on what was apparently a misapprehension, and Mira seems to have given him the third vote as a joke.

Also, Lottie, why aren't you worried by phantom's promise not to lynch those who voted for him?

EDIT:X'd with the orc himself.

[the phantom]

I remind you of a stuck-up know-it-all, Folwren?

YOU are the one telling people that their votes are stupid when they're not, and demanding that people see things your way. I'm merely pointing out facts. Again and again, since people are unwilling to grasp the points.

Originally Posted by Folwren

It is simply not logical that he could not see or concede how Sally's and Lottie's votes were indeed not logical or worth while. He could at LEAST concede that it would have made some more sense that they'd waited, but no, he argues that their votes were perfectly understandable, justifiable, and even comendable. Why? It doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Lottie

If he says that our votes were understandable, maybe it's because he understood them.

Precisely. I have explained my position logically and reasonably, and it's not my fault that people aren't following. For the 10th time- Lottie and Sally knew just as much as you when they voted. And oh by the way, they voted for a true orc. I mean- you can't argue with results. You really think lynching me would deflate me? *snerk* No, it would merely result in me dancing around saying, "Told you so!"

And by the way, I haven't even given the best justification for my antics and their early votes yet. In the end if I'm forced to say it I will, but the fact that more of you haven't backed off on this issue tells me that you haven't carefully considered everything about this village. Boro in particular- it's one of the main reasons I'm suspicious of you, as given your usual method of operating you would've seen two advantages in particular in doing what I have done and would have attempted to hint to me to the fact that you knew what I was doing. I mean, as far as "ploys" go this one is rather more obvious than those I typically favor.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

His push to become sole representative does bug me quite a lot

I've already explained that one, m'dear. It was largely a ploy (which could have been useful if it hadn't been blundered into and blown up so early). I remarked earlier that I knew good and well it wouldn't happen, so how can you think I honestly was trying for it? It's like me saying "I'm going to leap over the moon!" and then jumping as high as I can. Was I honestly trying to jump over the moon?

I knew I wouldn't get massive power, but I didn't mind getting a bit extra seeing as I am the only person I know is orcish and I have no intention of dying early, and votes in hand can help avoid that.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

unless I've misunderstood, the phantom's reasoning is this: "I'm too wilful to be manipulated by the wolves (cf Lottie), therefore they wouldn't try to make me a puppet-ruler, therefore all votes for me are probably trustworthy."

Erm, what? I don't recall ever ever saying or implying anything like that. All of my defenses of my voters have been primarily a reaction to people seeing something fishy about them when in fact it wasn't that big of a deal at all if considered cooly and realistically.

As a matter of fact I don't believe I have ever even declared my voters as being trustworthy or true orcs. I have merely been defending them against a specific attack which I saw as being a perplexing stretch of reasoning. In general when I see more than one person grasping onto the same legless argument I am quick to suspect that something odd is going on.