Werewolf LXXXI: Under the Misty Mountains

[Inziladun]

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.

Wilwa's latest comes across as highly defensive.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Speaking of which, did I miss Phantom's vote? Or did he not use them?

You didn't, and he didn't.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Also, what happened to Boro? And why do I have so many questions?!?! *flails*

Boro appears to be a modfire. As to why you have so many questions, I have no answer.

x/d with phantom

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Obvious question first: Why is phantom still alive?

If not for him, Izzy being targeted would be understandable, because her votes were the nail in the coffin for Lottie. But we have a Seer-reveal. And while we're on the subject, even if tp is lying, which seems likely, the real Seer needs to keep quiet for now.

I don't pretend to know what's up with phantom, and I'm not all that hopeful about being enlightened. But in my experience, a revealed Seer is generally a dead Seer. I could see no reason he would have legitimately revealed on Day 1, so I was already sceptical. But why would the elves not have taken him anyway to be on the safe side? There's no one to protect him.

Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.
EDIT:X'd with Zil; added comment.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Now, I thought Boro might be an Elf, up until he died– but you thought he was the Unknown Orc, phantom? Why?

Heh heh, no, I just hoped given the time of day he'd be around after I was done rereading, as I wished to start a bit of back-and-forth with him to get a feel for him, as on the first day I thought he was extremely weird and I couldn't get a handle on him.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Because his reveal was obviously fake, for the reasons you've just stated. (Come on, did anyone read that yesterDay and say: "ZOMG! He was the Seer all along!") Whereas Izzy must have looked pretty Seer-ish. No, I don't find tp's continued existence at all strange.

I'd like an explanation from him though– it seemed completely pointless.

Well, naturally my explanation depends completely on who I am. If I'm the Seer, then I'm flippin daring and, depending upon how long I survive, stupid or brilliant. If I'm an Orc then I still gave the SoE something to think about, as you can't dismiss someone like me pulling an obvious double-bluff. If I made them spend even 10 minutes extra on my posts, that's 10 minutes they weren't spending doing better things. If they're busy in RL then that 10 minutes could've been very valuable.

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked. If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill, as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.

[Inziladun]

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?

[the phantom]

Purely voting-based reasoning-

Lommy- The first Lottie voter. Uses all three. This merits an automatic pass through today. She also doesn't need to be given any rep votes, as she's already proved herself with them. In later days if she's still around she will be a likely rallying point (a safe person to give rep votes to).

Wilwa- Instead of pushing Sally ahead or raising Boro up, she kept Lottie tied for the lead. Not as obvious as Lommy, but likely deserves a pass through today.

Phantom- Definitely could have saved Lottie by killing Sally, but didn't. Possibly could've saved Lottie by voting Boro before Izzy cast her vote (would she have wanted a double-lynch?). Definitely could've lynched an innocent Boro alongside Lottie, but didn't.

Celuien- Put Boro into serious contention. A more subtle way of saving Lottie than voting Sally perhaps?

Green- First to vote for Sally. If Sally is innocent, then this was likely the best play to save Lottie.

Nerwen- Puts Sally even with Lottie and starts the Boro voting, elevating two alternatives to Lottie at the same time.

Based purely upon voting Lommy obviously looks the best, followed by Wilwa and I, and then the other three could be spun to look suspicious. But of course I'm not factoring anything else into this.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that.

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

First, I never said I suspected Foley. She was on my "under the radar" list.

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

(x-post Nerwen)

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And you ought to know that I don't let my partners die unless they have been outed by a revealed Seer. End of story. Sacrificing a teammate means surviving an extra day in order to win. My best bet has always been to not lose anyone. And heck, if you protect your partner half the village will think it's too obvious anyway, where as if you don't protect them you may well be suspected of throwing your partner under the bus. I protect my pack. Always have, always will. If Boro were still alive he'd definitely back me up on that one, having seen me work.

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

Originally Posted by tp

As far as clutching straws, I see that in fact I attributed a wrong post to Shasta, but actually doing so didn't completely change my attitude, as he was still definitely on the side of lynching Sally rather than Lottie.

Oh, I see. That's suspicious, but spending all Day defending a known wolf isn't? I say again: Sally and Lottie were both perfectly logical lynch-choices yesterDay.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But my points on Inzil and Legate- how are they clutching? I explained clearly my gripe with Legate- that he appeared to want his decision made for him (perhaps so he could use the excuse later "I couldn't help it"). And I also explained quite clearly that Inzil's suggestion of not voting was dangerous, and that he really didn't accuse anyone (he was too nice). And didn't I see that you suspect him too?

Yes, I do, but for different reasons.

[Nerwen]

In case I haven't made myself clear: phantom, I don't like the fact that you're talking as though you're now completely cleared by the mere fact that you let Lottie die yesterDay. Oh yes: "If I were a wolf I wouldn't do that". How many times have we all heard that one?

Your apparent obliviousness to the actual situation makes me worry about you as much, or more, than anything that happened yesterDay– it makes me feel like you're hoping to quash suspicion by sheer force of personality. Which is something you might even be able to bring off, too.

I do not say you are an Elf, mind, tp. I say that you do not currently have the luxury of sitting back and giving your impartial opinion on everyone else from the lofty height of a known innocent. Not at all.

Again: what do you now think Lottie was up to, yesterDay, and why did you appear to trust her so completely, until late in the Day?

Again: why did you claim to be the Seer?

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

Honestly.

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this? I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

(x-post)

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

I think it's extremely funny that this is why you suspect Inzil and yet you fit the profile of this idea far more than he does to this point.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I'm sorry, phantom, this is just a case of "sez you". You have a nerve trying to paint yourself as a known innocent.

I didn't say my vote made me innocent guaranteed. I at least had the decency to place myself in a lower category than Lommy. But sorry, I am going to point out obvious things about the voting that likely are important to anyone who is extremely familiar with my operations.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

Honestly.

Not honestly. If you're faking it you might be: a.) one of the SoE or b.) the Unknown Orc (having decided to take their side).

This is a very, very obvious point and again, your ignoring it does not make you look good.

[Nerwen]

I just want to revisit the Seer-question, because I don't think my first response quite covered the amount of sheer nonsense in that one post:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- your constant desire to talk about whether or not I'm really the Seer is really... um... weird.

If I'm faking it, then obviously you should let me fake it and let the SoE believe it and kill me while the Seer continues to hide. If I'm not faking it, why in the world would you keep pestering me about it, almost as if hoping that I'll give away that it's a double bluff? Your focus on this serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

If you're an innocent faking it– though for the life of me I don't know why– the harm I'd do by getting you to admit it is minimal. Oh, look, the wolves get to cross one, highly unlikely person off the "Possible Seers" list. On Day Two in a large village. What a disaster.

If you were the Seer double-bluffing, clearly I'd be doing the village a service by convincing the wolves it wasn't so. Also, if you were the Seer, why would you even suggest that you might be double-bluffing? You know, like you just did?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I'm looking at the player list, and I don't see any noobs on it. Who would counter-reveal in a situation like this?

If you claim there is no real risk of a fake-reveal flushing gifteds out... well, then, obviously you haven't played many games of wer– oh, wait, you have.

Or do you say that your reveal was so obviously fake that the real Seer would know you couldn't be a baddie, and must be on the village's side. Then why did you make it?

Originally Posted by the phantom

I mean, I'm not being the least bit destructive with my claim. I mean, heck, I'm not even demanding that you follow me or vote like me etc. I haven't repeated my claim since the day started either. Seriously, it's like you're begging for me to say too much or commit one way or the other, which a true Orc would know would serve no good purpose at all.

You are REALLY making me suspicious at this point.

You revealed. There seems no good reason for it. That's enough. You were bound to be questioned over it, and you must have known this. You do have a nerve, mate!

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

K, so WHY were people voting for me yesterDay? I am unimpressed.

For my part, I wanted to vote one of phantom's constituents. Lottie already had three votes at that stage, while there was no support for Mirandir.

Originally Posted by Sally

That being said, I apologize again for not returning/posting more. Funny part is, Lottie's post had an air of wolfishness to them but I didn't want to get on the thread and post anything because A: I wasn't very coherent, B: I didn't want to look like I was trying to save my hide, and C: I trusted Phantom to keep me around

Oh.

Originally Posted by Sally

And again, to any that asked, I voted Phantom for representative yesterDay because, on the whole, he is an intelligent player with whom I trust my voice, even if he is a pigheaded narcissistic airhead. (With love, dear.) There's very few better ways to test Phantom than to give him power, and the best time to do that is on the first Day when he can be vocal and annoying but do hopefully very little damage. And look at that, we got a wolf.

Your fellow phantom-voter. Don't you have anything to say about that?

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nerwen- I'm very undecided about you. On my little list of accusations and defenses, I have your line absolutely blank! Was I a screw-up during my readthrough,

Clearly.

Originally Posted by the phantom

But at the same time, your post 273 made me wonder if you were maybe the only person on my wave-length as far as understanding precisely what I was up to yesterday (when you quoted my thoughts on Lommy's vote- you seemed to be wise to the fact that I was completely okay with lynching Lottie despite my seeming defenses of her, as evidenced by me not saving her).

*shrugs* I know what you could have been thinking, if you're innocent.

However, I'm not particularly happy with the way you expect everyone to take your failure to save Lottie as proof of your innocence. It isn't. You ought to know that. You are not a known innocent, tp, and in fact I believe you have some explaining to do.

Also, the comments you make in that same post I quoted about Foley, Inzil, Shasta and Legate have something of a clutching-at-straws look– like you're trying to find any reason to suspect someone.

That said, I have my own doubts about Zil toDay, because of the way he keeps harping on the "why is phantom alive?" theme. If phantom's not an Elf, I could see the Elves going, "Ha, ha nice try! Let's kill someone else, then use his being alive toMorrow to frame him!".

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And honestly I think it may have paid off either way. If I'm the Seer then obviously it worked.

I don't know what you're up to, phantom, but I repeat, I find it highly unlikely you're the Seer. I cannot believe a real Seer– even you– would make a completely pointless reveal on Day One. And don't say, "Ah, but it's what they least expected! See how cunning I am!" I don't understand why Seer-you would have any need to try a desperate double-bluff to cover yourself at that point.

Originally Posted by phantom

If I'm not the Seer then I think I may have wasted some of the time they spent on deciding their kill,

If you're not the Seer, you've made a false reveal that might bring the real one out in the open– and again, for no good reason.

Originally Posted by phantom

as Izzy was not definitively on board the Lottie-train so much as she was just the one who cast the final vote for her. I mean, what are the odds that Izzy would have happened to dream of the exact SoE who just happened to be on the chopping block at the end? No, no, there were other targets to go after besides Izzy.

Seers have dreamed of wolves on Night One. It's not that unusual. Plus, even if they didn't think she was the Seer, she was a nice logical kill-choice, as she'd made herself very hard to lynch by her role in killing Lottie. (Killing her, note, not just "failing to save her". There's a difference.) Like I said, she's the person I most expected to turn up dead in the morning.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Since you're here, Nerwen, why did you cast your votes for Sally and Boro?

Because I had to vote in a hurry, and I thought there was a good chance at least one of them was an Elf.

EDIT:X'd with tp.